Article: Is BJJ dead?

[Jeff Goldblum69]

What 'old school' vale tudo guys? Guys who trained with a lot of striking? BTT or Carlson Gracie guys? No, modern sport guys are not tougher than those guys, as those guys were training all aspects of MMA. Modern self-defense BJJ guys? Hell yeah the sport guys are tougher.

I was referring to BTT/ chute guys .

Look, you're the one who agreed that 'BJJ = vale tudo' which I think is a ridiculous statement. Techniques developed by BJJ guys are widely taught in MMA alongside techniques developed by wrestlers, boxers, muy thai fighters, etc, but that doesn't make MMA equivalent to BJJ. You're not putting on the gi and thinking about passing guard, you're taking people down and punching them in the face. BJJ is a small part of that, I don't know why you keep insisting that it encompasses all the discipines you need for modern MMA or ever did. Pure BJJ may beat pure boxing, but it sure as hell doesn't beat someone who knows both in addition to wrestling. If you want to fight or really defend yourself effectively why not be that guy who is adept at all those disciplines? And the best way to become that guy is just to train MMA.

I think we are getting a little confused here..

I agreed bjj = value tudo because their history is intrinsically link together... You wouldn't have value tudo without bjj...and bjj wouldn't be anywhere as popular or respected as it is without value tudo.

I never said BJJ encompasses all aspects of modern MMA, in fact I was stating loudly that the MMA fighter is really just a combinations of all the modern fighting styles put together ....and therefore bjj should be as strong and effective as possible to help this situation.

 

[Jeff Goldblum69]

You said:



And I addressed why the 'tough, athletic' part also applies to high level sport BJJ guys, much more so than it does to self-defense BJJ guys who aren't preparing for high level athletic competition. Not sure how that's twisting your words. If you're saying they have a better skill set I agree, but mostly because they have really good takedowns and I think TD and TDD are the most important skills for MMA success because they allow you to dictate where the fight takes place.

I don't think I ever mentioned "self defence" guys (I hate that term) .. But I agree sport bjjers are more athletic

 

[Jeff Goldblum69]

SPORT BJJ TO BEAT OTHER TOP SPORT LEVEL BJJ

vs

BJJ us regular fucks learn at school

care?

/thread

Actually the article is really confusing .. He starts off by saying no martial art is effective in a street fight...but then by the end he is saying that bjj should be more realistic for fighting ... Wtf make your mind up!

 

[Rod1]

Kungfu and a lot of shitty MAs got useless not because of sparring, but because preservation of deadly techniques and street effectiveness became more important than sparring.

I would take a WKF karateka that does point sparring over any kungfu master that can break bricks and wooden sticks but never spars.

 

[cjd]

I think that's especially true outside the US where technique is emphasized over physical training. I don't know of any sport other than maybe track where physical conditioning is as emphasized as in American scholastic wrestling.

I think the idea of non-Americans being super-slick technicians with limited athleticism is a bit overstated. Certainly at the lower levels (middle school, high school) there is an absurd overemphasis on doing grueling conditioning workouts, but I think this is largely a product of poor coaching (as well as the fact that there are far greater conditioning demands in folk than free). Once you get to the higher levels, there is a far greater emphasis on technique.

For all the talk of Russians being superior technicians (don't get me wrong, they certainly are) they spend a massive amount of working on physical conditioning. However, they go about it better than we do in America - tons of gymnastics so their athletes are acrobatic and have incredible body control.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I was referring to BTT/ chute guys .




I think we are getting a little confused here..

I agreed bjj = value tudo because their history is intrinsically link together... You wouldn't have value tudo without bjj...and bjj wouldn't be anywhere as popular or respected as it is without value tudo.

I never said BJJ encompasses all aspects of modern MMA, in fact I was stating loudly that the MMA fighter is really just a combinations of all the modern fighting styles put together ....and therefore bjj should be as strong and effective as possible to help this situation.

To me the question boils down to what you want to get out of BJJ. If you want to get effective self defense then MMA is a better option since you'll be training full contact with strikes. If you want a fun sport, well BJJ is a sport that many find enjoyable. But what annoys me is when people say 'I want real life self defense skills' and then shit on sport BJJ because if you really wanted serious fighting skills (which, let's be honest, is what self defense is if you're not running away) you'd train MMA. I think what a lot of self defense first BJJ guys buy into is the idea that all you need is BJJ and that really training striking or wrestling isn't necessary because of Helio and Royce. Well if you're fighting untrained people that's certainly true, but it's also true for sport guys.

If the BJJ you're after seems to be dying, it's not because of sport BJJ. It's because MMA has replaced the limited skill set of old school BJJ with a maximally effective skill set that blends the most fight-useful parts of BJJ with the best of other disciplines and now guys who are serious about fighting don't go to BJJ schools because if they did they'd be robbing themselves of the chance to learn effective wrestling and striking.

 

[LaBrian]

I bet Keenan could use the baboon's tail to work worm guard pretty nice though.

What if, despite the author mocking worm guard, Keenan actually just invented THE most effective way to fight a baboon in all of history? Where the gladiators have failed, Cat Boy has triumphed!

All hail Cat Boy. Mind = blown.

 

[Irenaeus]

That article seems really incoherent. Did he change his mind what he wanted to do midways?

 

[sausageshop]

Its dead for me. One place near me is for sport and champions and I don't want that. another place looks TMA and has merciless contracts and I don't want that. its so confusing because BJJ appears to have so many potential training pitfalls that may result in you wasting your time. sad thing is, I tried some judo since I first came on here and even they were telling me how good BJJ is, but how to find what you want? Not sure if I am way off topic or digress too much, but from the perspective of the beginner/ground up, BJJ doesn't seem to make it easy for people to join in and that, in the final analysis may be amongst many reasons why BJJ needs an overhaul or become a lost art.

Sir, you are infuriating. Your reasons for not joining one gym or another are mostly in your mind and do not reflect reality. I train at the "place near you for sport and champions" and your perceptions of both the club and "sport" BJJ training in general are confusing. On the one hand you believe BJJ is declining due to abandoning its self defence roots from the Gracie challenge days and focusing on sport; on the other hand you complain that clubs make it hard for new people/beginners to join in now and you don't want to train because the exact thing you are looking for (100% self defence oriented BJJ) isn't offered. The reality is that BJJ, especially at clubs with structured training and beginner/fundamental programs, has never been more friendly to new folks.

Its clear you are interested in BJJ but have concerns about getting what you want from it, but ultimately you get out what you put in. If you have any questions about my club please PM me, I guarantee you can find what you are looking for there and also make many super best friends, get in shape, visit the moon, etc.

To contribute to the thread topic I was working the BJJ British Open a few weeks back and over two days of competition the vast majority of matches I saw were won via solid fundamental BJJ techniques especially in the higher belt divisions. All of these click bait articles on sport BJJ wilfully ignore the point that most competitors implementing flashy sports techniques at the highest level are absolute killers just with the basics, the writer even threw in "bring back heel hooks" to further polarise opinion. All in all a terrible article.

 

[shunyata]

I really don't understand what the fuss is all about

Keenan is BETTER than Lo, so he beat him using worm guard

Buchecha is BETTER than Keenan, so he beat him using his techniques

It's not like (and NEVER will be) a guy who have worst jiu jitsu beating a guy with better jiu jitsu.
Some purists may say "Oh, but that guy trains self defense and can do a better armbar from guard than Miyao"...ok, the fact is HE DID NOT ARMBARRED MIYAO, the skinny brazilian just CHOKED HIM, while TAKING HIS F*CKING BACK

get over it guys...some moves won't be countered, but the better FIGHTER (in those set of rules) will always win.
until Rodolfo destroyed Keenan, his guard was unpassable -_-

Unless you push a foot across your body and fake tap for the ref.

 

[Difeco]

Unless you push a foot across your body and fake tap for the ref.

If you push your opponent's foot to cause a knee reap, you're the one who gets DQ

But that has nothing to do with what I was trying to say, so I suppose (hope) you were being sarcastic...

 

[400lbKneeOnFace]

It's funny; history has a strange way of repeating itself.

MMA now fills the role that old-school BJJ did.

MMA now that it has become popular is degenerating so eventually something else will come along and supplant it too.

I just do no gi grappling for MMA and keep it as real as possible.

 

[shunyata]

If you push your opponent's foot to cause a knee reap, you're the one who gets DQ

But that has nothing to do with what I was trying to say, so I suppose (hope) you were being sarcastic...

I got what you were trying to say, it was a jab at Keenan's recent DQ where it looked like his opponent baited and setup the reap then tapped for the ref and did a victory celebration upon winning by DQ.

I just do no gi grappling for MMA and keep it as real as possible.

Same, although doing nogi and kickboxing with actual fighters has taught me that many other people keep it realer than I do. And I'm ok with that.

 

[Gorbag]

BJJ dead - was it ever alive? BJJ is just recycled judo with different contest rules and more focus on fighting in the guard! BJJ is not a different martial art, its just a school of judo...

 

[Difeco]

BJJ dead - was it ever alive? BJJ is just recycled judo with different contest rules and more focus on fighting in the guard! BJJ is not a different martial art, its just a school of judo...

Posts: 1
(and, please, keep it this way)

 

[lechien]

author really brought the lol.

 

[tenktriangles]

Sport only bjjers Tougher than old school vale tudo guys? Hell no..




Why do you keep saying this? If you go train MMA you're still going to have plenty of sole bjj classes, you're STILL a bjj student, they're not mutually exclusive worlds..so the problem is relevant and lives inside the BJJ gym.

Plenty of Mma guys train little or no BJJ. Some specifically only train anti-BJJ. Grudge MMA, here in Denver, basically has no BJJ program.

 

[irc]

BJJ has become a refuge for the supernerd.

 

[Estebanantonio]

Jiu-Jitsu is not dead. But what I call IBJJF jiu-jitsu is its own thing. After watching some of those 2014 matches I'm convinced that's not the direction I want to go with my own jiu-jitsu. As for me and my own we'll stick with "old school" maybe sacrifice a little in gi tournament matches but still hespect the take down game and the positional hierarchy that made jiu-jitsu such a powerful fighting art.

 

[Fruitsaladsushi]

To me the question boils down to what you want to get out of BJJ. If you want to get effective self defense then MMA is a better option since you'll be training full contact with strikes. If you want a fun sport, well BJJ is a sport that many find enjoyable. But what annoys me is when people say 'I want real life self defense skills' and then shit on sport BJJ because if you really wanted serious fighting skills (which, let's be honest, is what self defense is if you're not running away) you'd train MMA. I think what a lot of self defense first BJJ guys buy into is the idea that all you need is BJJ and that really training striking or wrestling isn't necessary because of Helio and Royce. Well if you're fighting untrained people that's certainly true, but it's also true for sport guys.

If the BJJ you're after seems to be dying, it's not because of sport BJJ. It's because MMA has replaced the limited skill set of old school BJJ with a maximally effective skill set that blends the most fight-useful parts of BJJ with the best of other disciplines and now guys who are serious about fighting don't go to BJJ schools because if they did they'd be robbing themselves of the chance to learn effective wrestling and striking.

1.) a lot of people don't want to trade full blown strikes of MMA, yet want a self defense program.. for a lot of average joes and joans BJJ is a effective self defense.

2.) only a very,very few guys see BJJ as a purely a sport.and the end of the day, it's still a fighting art, all those hours of training in the gym and competing in tournaments is about physical dominance of your opponent, about winning the fight. I love all types of BJJ but I can never fully dissociate that it's still a fighting style even when competing .. it's instinctual ..and I find people who only see it ONLY as a game very strange. I mean what did you sign up for in the first place if not how to learn a fighting art?

3.) I go to MMA school, we have MMA classes but we also have to go to BJJ, wrestling, and striking individual classes on offer as well. So it's silly to say MMA has replaced BJJ, just as it would be silly to say MMA has replaced Boxing or wrestling.. It hasn't! Rather MMA is like a finishing school where you put all the pieces together.

4) You're kinda contradicting yourself saying it's not sport BJJ but "old school BJJ" which is killing BJJ.. Because normally the BEST BJJ that translates the to MMA are the basic, simple, time test techniques(you know just like Carlson, BTT, and Rickson did).Just like the fundamentals in Boxing 50 years ago still apply today..and Im yet to see someone pull off a berimbolo in a MMA sparring class or in a fight.