Article: Is BJJ dead?

This is how sports work. If anyone actually watched wrestling, they would notice that it generally looks nothing like its MMA application either. You see guys tangled up in funk rolls waiting for the ref to restart it all the time. It is just playing to the quirks in scoring.

I just picked the very first 125# match I found from last year's NCAAs:




Both guys spend the first round tangled up and hanging on to ankles to prevent a score. It is a technicality. That is how sports work. Either one of these guys would blast you off your feet in five seconds, just like Miyao would choke you unconscious just as fast.

It is just sport application and playing to scoring quirks. It happens in all sports.


The difference is Those sport wrestlers are normally tough, athletic beasts who can transfer a lot easier to MMA than sport bjjers who button mash berimbolos
 
The difference is Those sport wrestlers are normally tough, athletic beasts who can transfer a lot easier to MMA than sport bjjers who button mash berimbolos

And you don't think sport BJJ guys training 2-3x per day several days a week with S&C on top of that are tougher and more athletic than the self defense/old school guys? They're better athletes in every way because they're preparing for a very physically strenuous sport. If BJJ has an MMA problem (and again, I think that's irrelevant since you can just go train MMA) it's lack of TDs not overly fancy guard work.
 
And you don't think sport BJJ guys training 2-3x per day several days a week with S&C on top of that are tougher and more athletic than the self defense/old school guys? They're better athletes in every way because they're preparing for a very physically strenuous sport. If BJJ has an MMA problem (and again, I think that's irrelevant since you can just go train MMA) it's lack of TDs not overly fancy guard work.

finally...someone with logic
 
Yesterday on here, sport BJJ guys were massive, frothing beasts making "astronomical" muscle gains that would put any other athlete to shame.

Today on here, they are pussy button mashers who would get their lunch money taken by a baboon in the street/jungle.

Got it.
 
The difference is Those sport wrestlers are normally tough, athletic beasts who can transfer a lot easier to MMA than sport bjjers who button mash berimbolos

There is that. But my point is that it has nothing to do with the sport application of BJJ. They may not have the athleticsm, but that is no reflection on BJJ in general.

You see plenty of guys that you wouldn't call physical beasts doing great in wrestling FWIW. You don't see them in MMA as much, but there are plenty of funk wrestlers that look a lot like the Miyaos, just skinny little turds that outslick everyone. Even a guy like Ben Askren is not what you would call an athletic beast. He looks and is way less athletic than the BJJ guys in his weight like Galvao and Popovitch.
 
And you don't think sport BJJ guys training 2-3x per day several days a week with S&C on top of that are tougher and more athletic than the self defense/old school guys? They're better athletes in every way because they're preparing for a very physically strenuous sport. If BJJ has an MMA problem (and again, I think that's irrelevant since you can just go train MMA) it's lack of TDs not overly fancy guard work.

Well done twisting my words.. I said sport wrestlers (no matter the rule set) will be more prepared for MMA than sport bjjers ... That's all.
 
Only if BJJ guys stop sparring. That's really the key. Wrestling has a lot of positions that don't have much relation to fighting (going belly down with a guy on top of you, for example) but it doesn't hurt them any because they're still good grapplers due to tons of live work. What killed kung fu and karate wasn't sporty technique, it was lack of sparring. That's why contact karate and kung fu styles (kyokushin, san shou) produce perfectly competent strikers.

I hear you on the sparrring and agree that it is the key. But, you can create rules to par down the sparring until it is so restricted that it is on the same level as sticky hands "sparring" in kung fu. I fear BJJ is inching closer and closer to that every year.
 
As a total outsider I say this:

1, BJJ should be for everyone not just late teens to early 30's athletic beasts.

2, if your BJJ doesn't help you to defend against kicks and punches [remember early UFC?] then it will become a safe, grapple only recreation centre sport for said late teens to early 30's athletic beasts or phenomenas like the Miyao brothers.

and in that case, it may not die, but it will become a zombie like sport that not even the Olympics wants.
 
There is that. But my point is that it has nothing to do with the sport application of BJJ. They may not have the athleticsm, but that is no reflection on BJJ in general.

You see plenty of guys that you wouldn't call physical beasts doing great in wrestling FWIW. You don't see them in MMA as much, but there are plenty of funk wrestlers that look a lot like the Miyaos, just skinny little turds that outslick everyone. Even a guy like Ben Askren is not what you would call an athletic beast. He looks and is way less athletic than the BJJ guys in his weight like Galvao and Popovitch.

i'd say Ben Askren is more athletic than Galvao and Popovich. it's naive to judge athletism base on looks
 
And you don't think sport BJJ guys training 2-3x per day several days a week with S&C on top of that are tougher and more athletic than the self defense/old school guys?

Sport only bjjers Tougher than old school vale tudo guys? Hell no..


If BJJ has an MMA problem (and again, I think that's irrelevant since you can just go train MMA) it's lack of TDs not overly fancy guard work.

Why do you keep saying this? If you go train MMA you're still going to have plenty of sole bjj classes, you're STILL a bjj student, they're not mutually exclusive worlds..so the problem is relevant and lives inside the BJJ gym.
 
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The fact that BJJ at the highest level looks silly and relies on some very complex stuff doesn't mean those people couldn't fuck up an average joe with some very basic stuff.
 
I only skimmed the article but I can glean from the comments what it was about.

I too hate all the new, highly gi dependent guards.

I've been exposed to the "worm guard" a lot because one of my instructors (a black belt) models his guard game after Keenan's. It's frustrating as fuck to spar against, but you know what, if I were better at grip breaking then I wouldn't be bitching. I suck against spider guard for the same reason. The onus is on me to sharpen and improve my basics.

As a spectator of BJJ, I cannot tolerate most guards. I never buy BJJ events (usually catch them the next day on YT) and skip the garbage stall-fest matches.
 
Sport only bjjers Tougher than old school vale tudo guys? Hell no..

What 'old school' vale tudo guys? Guys who trained with a lot of striking? BTT or Carlson Gracie guys? No, modern sport guys are not tougher than those guys, as those guys were training all aspects of MMA. Modern self-defense BJJ guys? Hell yeah the sport guys are tougher.

Why do you keep saying this? If you go train MMA you're still going to have plenty of sole bjj classes, you're STILL a bjj student, they're not mutually exclusive worlds..

Look, you're the one who agreed that 'BJJ = vale tudo' which I think is a ridiculous statement. Techniques developed by BJJ guys are widely taught in MMA alongside techniques developed by wrestlers, boxers, muy thai fighters, etc, but that doesn't make MMA equivalent to BJJ. You're not putting on the gi and thinking about passing guard, you're taking people down and punching them in the face. BJJ is a small part of that, I don't know why you keep insisting that it encompasses all the discipines you need for modern MMA or ever did. Pure BJJ may beat pure boxing, but it sure as hell doesn't beat someone who knows both in addition to wrestling. If you want to fight or really defend yourself effectively why not be that guy who is adept at all those disciplines? And the best way to become that guy is just to train MMA.
 
i'd say Ben Askren is more athletic than Galvao and Popovich. it's naive to judge athletism base on looks

I'm not talking just looks- strength, speed, explosiveness... basically every measure of athleticism except maybe cardio. Balance and timing are athletic traits, but these are also the traits that the Miyaos have that apparently aren't as athletic as their wrestling counterparts.

I'm a wrestler. I have actually wrestled some of these "great athletes" and I don't think wrestlers are great athletes in general or any better than BJJ athletes. My point is that some wrestlers are great athletes in the ways we typically measure athleticism, some aren't. BJJ is the same way. It was an aside, because the other poster said that wrestlers are athletic beasts while BJJ guys are scrawny button mashers... it isn't true. There are some very goofy and awkward guys that became really good wrestlers.
 
Well done twisting my words.. I said sport wrestlers (no matter the rule set) will be more prepared for MMA than sport bjjers ... That's all.

You said:

The difference is Those sport wrestlers are normally tough, athletic beasts who can transfer a lot easier to MMA than sport bjjers who button mash berimbolos

And I addressed why the 'tough, athletic' part also applies to high level sport BJJ guys, much more so than it does to self-defense BJJ guys who aren't preparing for high level athletic competition. Not sure how that's twisting your words. If you're saying they have a better skill set I agree, but mostly because they have really good takedowns and I think TD and TDD are the most important skills for MMA success because they allow you to dictate where the fight takes place.
 
I'm not talking just looks- strength, speed, explosiveness... basically every measure of athleticism except maybe cardio. Balance and timing are athletic traits, but these are also the traits that the Miyaos have that apparently aren't as athletic as their wrestling counterparts.

I'm a wrestler. I have actually wrestled some of these "great athletes" and I don't think wrestlers are great athletes in general or any better than BJJ athletes. My point is that some wrestlers are great athletes in the ways we typically measure athleticism, some aren't. BJJ is the same way. It was an aside, because the other poster said that wrestlers are athletic beasts while BJJ guys are scrawny button mashers... it isn't true. There are some very goofy and awkward guys that became really good wrestlers.

I think that's especially true outside the US where technique is emphasized over physical training. I don't know of any sport other than maybe track where physical conditioning is as emphasized as in American scholastic wrestling.
 
Well done twisting my words.. I said sport wrestlers (no matter the rule set) will be more prepared for MMA than sport bjjers ... That's all.

Hummm, no. Pure wrestling has a not so good positional hierarchy for combat and lack submissions. According to wrestling the guy on the receiving end of a triangle is winning because the other guy has his back on the floor.
 
Bruh, that berimbolo shit totally won't work in the jungle, bruh

I bet Keenan could use the baboon's tail to work worm guard pretty nice though.

What if, despite the author mocking worm guard, Keenan actually just invented THE most effective way to fight a baboon in all of history? Where the gladiators have failed, Cat Boy has triumphed!

All hail Cat Boy. Mind = blown.
 
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