Are liberals really empathetic or do they just want to destroy middle class?

[Deleted member 159002]

Right wingers are the ones who demonize public sector employees and unions, the last vestiges of the middle class.

 

[Greoric]

So hierarchies ARE ok, and some people ARE meant to be at the bottom, taking orders, (they better not ask for my tax money though).

That's fine that you people believe that. I just wish you'd have the dignity to not rattle on about freedom and liberty when you so clearly and plainly believe in a world where there are tons of people who aren't free (not you, of course, you get to be on top).

You are arguing for a situation that is completely impossible though, and despite millions of people being murdered to achieve it you're still willing to pursue the same objective. The definition of insantiy, or in this case likely just a mental disease. There is no social organization that can achieve an equality of outcome.

The only demonstrable way that's been shown to raise people out of absolute poverty also has the consequence that people are raised above it unequally (unfortunately I agree). Interestingly enough, the distribution of that inequality follows a pattern pervasive through out natural phenomenon and isn't even exclusive to humans, i.e. the pareto distribution.

Would I love the possibility that we could all be rockstars, and billionaires, and cancer-curing physicians? Yes! That is not the reality mate. The difference here is a conflict of visions. I accept the way things are and am willing to work within limitations to achieve better. You don't recognize the hard limitations of reality, and are pursuing something that will never exist.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Bolded: curious, but why not? Cost of living in your area or something?

In NJ we got taxed to hell and it’s just generally a very expensive state to live in. Moreso, an if you’re planning for retirement through a diversified plan and are hoping to have kids, it’s not like you live like a king on that income.

That's how everyone thinks. Just raise it on those who make more then me. Meanwhile 75k a year and up on average is as much money as most people will ever need. Some exceptions for expensive states and areas.

What does that even mean? As much as they will ever need? Aka never retire and never pay off loans or actually own anything 100%?

 

[Greoric]

Off topic, but very curious. What is your implication here? That after "they" are done in South Africa they are coming for us next?

When populations are found in the minority, yes they are at risk for genocide. That's historically been the case.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

We could afford a plan, just not the plan she had. The plan we could afford would be useless as the deductible was outrageous. It's not an issue anymore as we both have a state plan now. But just for perspective, the plan she had at the time was just under 200 a month. After ACA, that same plan went to over 400 monthly. When she only made like 30k a year that isn't feasible. So like I said, she went without for over a year. Seems a little counter productive to me. Now when it comes to healthcare costs, I can agree that something should be done. I'm just not sure what.
About the first part of your post, I will go reread it.

I sympathize. The amount people need to pay on premiums and/or deductibles is unjust. However, the system we had pre-ACA was unjust too, where people with expensive needs had virtually no opportunity of a decent quality of life. What we need are protections for people with expensive needs (which the ACA took care of) and large subsidies for people to buy insurance.

 

[Greoric]

Right wingers are the ones who demonize public sector employees and unions, the last vestiges of the middle class.

So middle class, by way of theft?

This economic progressive shoots back. Hope you don't confuse the two.

Just join the reality Viva that the objective of economic progressivism (equal relative prosperity) will never become possible. Embrace the economic right, and accept that absolute (though not relative) prosperity is the only objective we can produce... in so long as we're pre-transhuman.

Besides that. I support your resistance.

 

[Greoric]

You are correct as that is historically accurate. However, that is no way reflective of America. If anyone would be at risk of genocide in this country, it would be by us. Not the other way around.

So the geography of America has some special magical powers that would prevent that?

And if by us, you mean whites? No. They're losing ground and foreigners from populations of substantially lower IQ and cultures antithetical to our own are taking over. Buckle in bub. This ride is going to get bumpy.

 

[VivaRevolution]

So middle class, by way of theft?



Just join the reality Viva that the objective of economic progressivism (equal relative prosperity) will never become possible. Embrace the economic right, and accept that absolute (though not relative) prosperity is the only objective we can produce... in so long as we're pre-transhuman.

Besides that. I support your resistance.

The machines make 1 of 2 outcomes inevitable. The enslavement of the human race, or actual economic equality.

I hope I am wrong, and there is a 3rd choice, but I don't see what that 3rd choice could be.

What libertarians should be fighting for, is that the free market beats government to the punch, in making resource scarcity obsolete, so we don't end up with the means of production under central control. Whether government or a new fuedal ruling class(not sure of the difference), that is the path towards the enslavement of the species.

I am more likely to convert you to the idea that economic progressive ideas do not have to be opposed to decentralized systems.

 

[Prutfis]

Destroying the middle class is what the republicans do.

TS is an idiot

 

[theBLADE1]

sup

 

[Greoric]

The machines make 1 of 2 outcomes inevitable. The enslavement of the human race, or actual economic equality.

I hope I am wrong, and there is a 3rd choice, but I don't see what that 3rd choice could be.

What libertarians should be fighting for, is that the free market beats government to the punch, in making resource scarcity obsolete, so we don't end up with the means of production under central control. Wether government or a new fuedal ruling class, that isn't he path towards the enslavement of the species.

I am more likely to convert you to the idea that economic progressive ideas do not have to be opposed to decentralized systems.

Yeah I love this hyperopic approach that we've talked about before. I agree, hence why I added in the pre-transhumanism. I'd state the two possibilties a little differently though. Either the extermination of the humans race by AGI, or the symbiosis with it.

With the second possibility though, we effectively stop being that sexually dimorphic status seeking species we've been for the last 500k years as I wrote to @Possum Jenkins about.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Yeah I love this hyperopic approach that we've talked about before. I agree, hence why I added in the pre-transhumanism. I'd state the two possibilties a little differently though. Either the extermination of the humans race by AGI, or the symbiosis with it.

I'm not sure why, but the singularity isn't a moving argument to me.

I do know that this new world is going to bring all kinds of new divisions though. The pro genetic modifiers, and the anti. The pro technology implant groups, the anti.

I watch this barbarian abrahamic BS that has been fought over for 1,000's of years, and think to myself, "well at least we have coming debates that are actually worth fighting over."

 

[Greoric]

I not sure why, but the singularity isn't a moving argument to me.

I do know that this new world is going to bring all kinds of new divisions though. The pro genetic modifiers, and the anti. The pro technology implant groups, the anti.

I watch this barbarian abrahamic BS that has been fought over for 1,000's of years, and think to myself, "well at least we have coming debates that are actually worth fighting over."

This is awesome that you've been thinking about this as well. Tell me your thoughts on the singularity rejection. Kurzweil's projection the way tech has moved makes at least immediate sense. We're always looking for greater interface with tech. Implants and symbiosis with the machines seems possible, if not probable with that in mind.

 

[Greoric]

It's hard to believe that you actually think that and are serious. There's way too much control, volume, and borderline domination by race in this country for something like that to ever happen here like "taking over". For example, I work for one of the Big Four accounting firms, and I can't tell you how lopsided race is on my current staff level. Let alone the Directors and Managing Partners. This is the case everywhere, as the higher you go up the ladder the less diversity. The invasion, as you are hinting, would be so minor that it's still a blip on the radar if minority population doubled, and still wouldn't be much of a threat where it matters most.

I don't want to get too off topic though so I'll continue this when I see you in another thread on the topic.

That's because getting to the top takes time. In 1965 The US was 95% white. Now its only 65% ... so the people climbing to the top back then were among a less diverse population. The older people at the top ascended the corporate latter when the white population was still vastly predominant. It's also buttressed by the separate IQ medians seen among populations, with whites being close to the top... So naturally in that aspect you'll see less hispanics and african americans on a statistical basis (Though not necessarily anecdotally of course). Interestingly, depending on the field, you'll also probably even see less East Asian despite higher median IQs, but by virtue of cultural values for professional careers.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Yes but there is too far of a gap now between the uninsured and insured.

Like the schools in ny, 6 kids in a classroom out of 28 who have parents who contribute to school tax.

More people using roads and bridges then the ones who contribute for its maintenance

I don’t believe this at all. 21% of people pay taxes towards the schools with chickdren in school

 

[Shoemaker]

In NJ we got taxed to hell and it’s just generally a very expensive state to live in. Moreso, an if you’re planning for retirement through a diversified plan and are hoping to have kids, it’s not like you live like a king on that income.



What does that even mean? As much as they will ever need? Aka never retire and never pay off loans or actually own anything 100%?

Makes sense. I'd still consider you upperclass, since you sit very comfortably in the top 5% of households.

 

[VivaRevolution]

This is awesome that you've been thinking about this as well. Tell me your thoughts on the singularity rejection. Kurzweil's projection the way tech has moved makes at least immediate sense. We're always looking for greater interface with tech. Implants and symbiosis with the machines seems possible, if not probable with that in mind.

I think it is that humans tend to desire a diversity of outcomes. Even inferior outcomes.

That the competing factions from genetic, to machine, to humanists, and the hybrid ideologies it will produce, will prevent the actual singularity from occurring.

I don't disagree the technology is coming. I think I disagree that true collectivism is in our nature. Tribalism for sure. Collectivism, not so much.

 

[Greoric]

Makes sense. I'd still consider you upperclass, since you sit very comfortably in the top 5% of households.

Remember that's not that spectacular. That's just 1/20 households, and only a snap-shot during a career which has peak and trough earning years.

 

[Greoric]

I think it is that humans tend to desire a diversity of outcomes. Even inferior outcomes.

That the competing factions from genetic, to machine, to humanists, and the hybrid ideologies it will produce, will prevent the actual singularity from occurring.

I don't disagree the technology is coming. I think I disagree that true collectivism is in our nature. Tribalism for sure. Collectivism, not so much.

Yeah, interesting points. If I'd conjecture, I suspect it comes down to solving the consciousness problem. If not then strap in for extermination.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

So middle class, by way of theft?

Oh, I see. You're still into redefining words...