Are liberals really empathetic or do they just want to destroy middle class?

[MayhemMonkey]

"then why would it be an issue if it directly benefited the nation as a whole?" That actually is part of my issue. I don't agree with it in the sense of healthcare, where many people are allowed to even purposefully not contribute, but receive benefits from it. I'm all for taxes on everything else, but I hate the knowledge of knowing that people have legitimately quit jobs with statements like "why work when uncle Sam will pay me everything I need" from people I have known.

Maybe there's no perfect system that can be had because you end up grouping the lower class together as a whole which is unfair, but I do feel that people in the "lazy" group shouldn't receive a penny in any regards and the ultra bare healthcare possible. Lazy people only facilities, which I guess happens indirectly sometimes. I don't have a perfect solution for this case though.

you didnt answer my questions, could you pay more taxes and still live comfortably?

Also its a proven fact that a healthy nation is more productive, which directly benefits society. thats not even debatable

again, your outlook on things is "me vs them"... which doesnt really help anyone

 

[BudKing8806]

but until youve walked a mile in their shoes who are you to judge them? Some people do scrounge, I wont deny there are some that just take with no effort to contribute.... but they are a massive minority. Some just are in a rut and need some assistance, some need mental health treatment, some have drug issues etc. But most want to do well, its just a case of giving them a safety net that doesnt punish them for things that they sometimes cant control(losing a job, health issues etc).

If America claims to be exceptional, it should really take a look at what makes it exceptional... its the same that makes any nation great, its people

I can empathize with some situations. I came up poor as hell. I was just always taught that if you want something, you have to work for it. I may be biased because there are a few in my extended family who abuse the system and it bothers me. And it is hilarious you quoted me twice lol...I wish I was that high.

 

[Greoric]

you didnt answer my questions, could you pay more taxes and still live comfortably?

Also its a proven fact that a healthy nation is more productive, which directly benefits society. thats not even debatable

again, your outlook on things is "me vs them"... which doesnt really help anyone

Would you agree then that production, because it raises living standards within society, is our goal? And would you also say being the most efficient with your production is the best way to produce more?

 

[Makani]

Are conservatives really cucks to the rich or do they want to destroy the middle class?

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

this is why American society is so dysfunctional

American society is so dysfunctional because people don't take care of their OWN kids.

 

[Iceberg Slim]

This picture you’re painting is just flat out wrong. Problem is you won’t change your mind no matter what. People aren’t sitting around doing nothing but you think they are.

I'm open to assistance in regards to healthcare, but to say "People aren't sitting around doing nothing" is dishonest. I know people like that and I bet you do too. When these threads come up, they are the ones that come to mind. For example, I know a girl that I've been friends with for 20+ years. When she was young I helped her get jobs but she didn't really want to work. Within weeks she'd quit or get fired for not showing up. I tried to get her in school but she was never interested. Now she has 4 kids and works at a gas station. My wife has a cousin that has been a piece of shit since the day I met him. He's 30 and still can't hold down a job. He just wants to get high with his loser friends. His own father even cut him off. I could go on and on. I don't want to pay for these fuckers. When you deny that people like them even exist, you lose credibility and diminish the effectiveness of your argument. They not only exist, there are lots of them.

 

[kpt018]

I can Monkey, maybe not a few years back but now I am in a very comfortable position. I do acknowledge though that there is a substantial amount of people that may not be as well off.

I'll address this post together as you both made similar points. While reading back on my posts I can concede that I do have a more "you're on your own" mentality on this subject. I'm not willing to say I am 100% right however or that it is the best solution, so I am open to what would you guys suggest is the most ideal way to handle healthcare fairly. Fairly in a way that it does help those who work with low wages, doesn't reward those who are lazy, and doesn't create a continuous increasing burden on upper middle and middle class?

It's cool man, non of us are experts here. And you can get liberals, who share similar goals in a room and get heated disagreement. For example, I'm skeptical of a single payer or medicare for all system that would materially increase taxes for middle class folks and I'd prefer a market based solution like the ACA but with improvements. I do share with you the idea that people are going to need to work hard to make it work.

Anyway, respectful disagreement is appreciated.

 

[Greoric]

I can empathize with some situations. I came up poor as hell. I was just always taught that if you want something, you have to work for it. I may be biased because there are a few in my extended family who abuse the system and it bothers me. And it is hilarious you quoted me twice lol...I wish I was that high.

@MayhemMonkey
Keep in mind. He doesn't (or more precisely the ideaology he supports) doesn't actually care about poor people. It's only result is to sustain a level of poverty. The institution he's proposing to "help the poor" is incentivized by getting more people on the doll, and keeping them there. Their beauacratic budgets get larger that way as a result. That's the precise opposite result with private eleemosynary activity, where the outlook is for the deserving poor to be able to get off the doll, and rise above the aid.

 

[luckyshot]

Starts with thread titles: Are Liberals Really Empathetic...

Ends with the statement:

I for one do not care about other people’s children.

Maybe someone here isn't the most qualified expert on empathy...

Also @snakedafunky destroyed your entire premise in one reply.

Not really sure what's left to do here except to add that Obamacare was written by Republicans (when Democrats forced them to write something that was going to prevent insurance companies from denying people with pre-existing conditions). We need Medicaid for all, and we need it yesterday.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

I can empathize with some situations. I came up poor as hell. I was just always taught that if you want something, you have to work for it. I may be biased because there are a few in my extended family who abuse the system and it bothers me. And it is hilarious you quoted me twice lol...I wish I was that high.

and thats a perfectly healthy outlook to have in life, but theres lots of people that have worked hard and through no fault of their own shit went south and they hit hard times. Its at those times a safety net would really help those that cant help it. Unfortunately there will always be scroungers that just take from the system. But they are a minority

yeah I didnt even realise until after the 2nd reply..... fuck knows what I was thinking? lol clearly Ive got some good shit

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

I'm open to assistance in regards to healthcare, but to say "People aren't sitting around doing nothing" is dishonest. I know people like that and I bet you do too. When these threads come up, they are the ones that come to mind. For example, I know a girl that I've been friends with for 20+ years. When she was young I helped her get jobs but she didn't really want to work. Within weeks she'd quit or get fired for not showing up. I tried to get her in school but she was never interested. Now she has 4 kids and works at a gas station. My wife has a cousin that has been a piece of shit since the day I met him. He's 30 and still can't hold down a job. He just wants to get high with his loser friends. His own father even cut him off. I could go on and on. I don't want to pay for these fuckers. When you deny that people like them even exist, you lose credibility and diminish the effectiveness of your argument. They not only exist, there are lots of them.

So you're saying unemployment isn't low and Americans don't out work almost every other nation on earth.

 

[Ortegoat]

You’re so dense you can’t figure it out yourself. I’m not surprised you don’t understand anything.

Why should you pay for others when “other people” are literally paying for your health insurance through taxes.

Dude you must have a fucking screw that’s loose.

Did you read because my wife works full time and they pay her $12/hour? If they didn’t offer her good insurance if she wasn’t married to me she could just work a little less and would get free Obama care anyway. She gets good healthcare because she actually WORKS and takes care of bums kids all week for shit pay

 

[MayhemMonkey]

@MayhemMonkey
Keep in mind. He doesn't (or more precisely the ideaology he supports) doesn't actually care about poor people. It's only result is to sustain a level of poverty. The institution he's proposing to "help the poor" is incentivized by getting more people on the doll, and keeping them there. Their beauacratic budgets get larger that way as a result. That's the precise opposite result with private eleemosynary activity, where the outlook is for the deserving poor to be able to get off the doll, and rise above the aid.

is this directed at me or about me?

 

[kpt018]

Starts with thread titles: Are Liberals Really Empathetic...

Ends with the statement:



Maybe someone here isn't the most qualified expert on empathy.

Also @snakedafunky destroyed your entire premise in one reply.

Not really sure what's left to do here except to add that Obamacare was written by Republicans. We need Medicaid for all, and we need it yesterday.

This is a great observation. The righties on here inadvertently answered the question and destroyed the premise of the OP!

 

[Shoemaker]

I think the issue is really what is the “middle class” my wife and I earned 300k+ jointly in 2018 and we’re not living the high life. I would say I’d be comfortable with raising taxes on 400k+ joint earners but below that doesn’t feel right.

Bolded: curious, but why not? Cost of living in your area or something?

 

[BudKing8806]

Starts with thread titles: Are Liberals Really Empathetic...

Ends with the statement:



Maybe someone here isn't the most qualified expert on empathy...

Also @snakedafunky destroyed your entire premise in one reply.

Not really sure what's left to do here except to add that Obamacare was written by Republicans (when Democrats forced them to write something that was going to prevent insurance companies for denying people with pre-existing conditions). We need Medicaid for all, and we need it yesterday.

Hey, if we could provide Medicaid for all without seeing a large amount of difference in my bring home pay, I'd be cool with it. I think where it loses people is because we're out there working hard trying to make ends meet, and you want me to now help cover costs for people we don't know. Hell, the struggle is bad enough for most of us already.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Did you read because my wife works full time and they pay her $12/hour? If they didn’t offer her good insurance if she wasn’t married to me she could just work a little less and would get free Obama care anyway. She gets good healthcare because she actually WORKS and takes care of bums kids all week for shit pay

So no matter what other people are contributing towards your health insurance

Seems strange that you would accept something you want to deprive others of.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

A big thing also is while we were discussing this topic, I did not even realize how antagonizing the thread title was. Very difficult to start conversation and not be met with an amount of aggression with that thread title. I am however glad that guys like you and @MayhemMonkey were able to intelligently discuss this with me even with my massively differing viewpoint.

During this conversation I can read out my thoughts from my posts in a way that tells me "do I really want to support this stance this strongly?". Not so sure anymore. I am going to revisit my opinion on this and look into what you both stated, so next time we discuss this topic I may either have a revised opinion or a stronger stance on why I feel your idea wouldn't work long term.

Great talk.

 

[luckyshot]

Hey, if we could provide Medicaid for all without seeing a large amount of difference in my bring home pay, I'd be cool with it. I think where it loses people is because we're out there working hard trying to make ends meet, and you want me to now help cover costs for people we don't know. Hell, the struggle is bad enough for most of us already.

Listen, you're taxes would go up... but what do you currently pay for healthcare?

The cost of my PPO plan for a family of four is $32,000 next year!!!! (And I still have co-pays and all that shit!)

I'm pretty sure my taxes wouldn't have to go up $32,000 to pay for my share of Medicaid for all... especially if we didn't do things like repeal the estate tax...

 

[Ortegoat]

So no matter what other people are contributing towards your health insurance

Seems strange that you would accept something you want to deprive others of.

You understand that I pay those taxes right so the public school educators get paid and have insurance and so that free loaders kids might learn something?