Alan Thrall is Wrong About Almost Everything

[Oblivian]

I've made the exact same point this entire time. Starting strength is a good program for its intended user, the true beginner. Wave programming and accessory work is meant for and most effective with intermediate and advanced lifters, like 531 and JTS. I think isolation exercises and things like curls are a bad use of time for a true beginner, but have uses as you start getting some time under the bar. Starting Strength already includes things like chin ups in their third phase of the program, which covers the biceps vanity exercise well enough for a beginner.

I don't think that's very confusing for a stance on this topic. Plenty of people can get strong/big/aesthetically pleasing in a number of different ways. Plenty of people do it. You can get strong and big on nothing but cable machines, but nobody is going to recommend that over barbell work. The same can be applied with programming styles. We're not reinventing the wheel here. You can only reap the benefits of a linear progression each workout for so long.

I think the bold is a dated mindset. I get it that Starting Strength is designed to be marketed to the masses, so keeping it simple makes sense. I think you'll find the majority of trainers would disagree at this point. I personally think many beginning lifters could benefit by dropping sets on the main in favor of assistance as well if they are pressed on time. If they aren't, assistance work really doesn't take that long. Focusing on hypertrophy early is not a bad thing, especially for those in a surplus looking to get stronger long term.

 

[boingyman]

If you have the time I think these are worth watching/listening to on the discussion of programming

 

[JimRussel]

I think the bold is a dated mindset.

big time.

 

[A.S. Deep]

Odd because I've been lifting for years and I've wound up with large arms simply by doing lots of compound pressing and row work. I don't do any isolation with the exception of leg curls and leg raises at low weight with moderate reps at the end of my workout to get blood flow for recovery, and my arms have grown fine with the rest of me. The fact is that triceps make up most of your arm size anyways, and bicep curls don't do much for your total size. If you're doing enough row variations, your arms should grow.

I'm not against isolation movements or barbell curls, I've just never seen a personal need for them and I don't have stick arms. I certainly don't see any need for isolation exercises like curls in a beginner program like 5x5. You should be spending that effort doing squat/deadlift/bench/press instead. It's a much more valuable use for your time. As you progress into an intermediate program that's when I would say to start adding the accessory work for your weakpoints and the isolation movements for the aesthetics.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder or do "powerbuilding" then you need that base of strength to work off of anyways.

Sort of agree, sort of disagree.

- There are a lot of people who don't need arm work to get big arms. These people are sometimes called "limb dominant" because the compounds hit their arms enough to cause them to significantly grow. However, there are also a lot of people who are "torso dominant" and need stuff like curls and triceps extensions. For example, Matt Kroc was a powerlifter known for doing crazy dumbbell curls (like 300lbs for reps) but then had to do curls because his biceps hadn't kept up with the rest of his body.

It's no different than people who need pre-exhuast on certain bodyparts in order to feel them work. For example, some people need to pre-exhaust their Lats before rows and really squeeze at the top to feel the exercise, while I can do momentum reps with horrible form and my back is on fire. People are different.

- Curls and triceps extensions (done right) are amazing for elbow health. I've been unable to lift for 5 years now but am doing a bunch of rehab to get back to it. My therapist has me doing a bunch of curls for my elbow issues and it's been working wonders. Even if you don't need curls for bicep size, they have their place to prevent future issues.

- Overall, I agree that it's dumb to focus on curls if you can't even bench 225lbs. I guess my disagreement is that if a beginner focuses on benching 225lbs while doing a set of curls at the end of his workouts, then what's the issue? If I didn't have injuries which absolutely require me to do curls and triceps pushdowns right now, I wouldn't be doing them until I could Bench and Row 225lbs again. But it's not like they impact my recovery, so who really cares?

Like I said in another post here, doing some isolations at the end of the workout doesn't take away recovery from the big stuff. If lateral raises and dumbbell curls take away from your Squat and Bench Press, especially when you're a beginner who can recover super fast, then there's a bigger issue going on. Back in high school, guys I played sports with used bodypart splits and Squatted once a week, and yet many of them hit 315lbs within a year. And they also did a bunch of isolations too.

 

[spdrew2143]

I've made the exact same point this entire time. Starting strength is a good program for its intended user, the true beginner. Wave programming and accessory work is meant for and most effective with intermediate and advanced lifters, like 531 and JTS. I think isolation exercises and things like curls are a bad use of time for a true beginner, but have uses as you start getting some time under the bar. Starting Strength already includes things like chin ups in their third phase of the program, which covers the biceps vanity exercise well enough for a beginner.

I don't think that's very confusing for a stance on this topic. Plenty of people can get strong/big/aesthetically pleasing in a number of different ways. Plenty of people do it. You can get strong and big on nothing but cable machines, but nobody is going to recommend that over barbell work. The same can be applied with programming styles. We're not reinventing the wheel here. You can only reap the benefits of a linear progression each workout for so long.

Like oblivion said starting strength is a dated program. I know quite a few trainers and almost none of them recommend ss for beginners. You can build a better base and work capacity with other programs. Throwing in an isolation exercise like curls is very beneficial for beginners. It will pay off in the long run for stuff like bicep tendon strength which carries over to the bench and deadlift.

 

[DoomPatrol]

Sort of agree, sort of disagree.

- There are a lot of people who don't need arm work to get big arms. These people are sometimes called "limb dominant" because the compounds hit their arms enough to cause them to significantly grow. However, there are also a lot of people who are "torso dominant" and need stuff like curls and triceps extensions. For example, Matt Kroc was a powerlifter known for doing crazy dumbbell curls (like 300lbs for reps) but then had to do curls because his biceps hadn't kept up with the rest of his body.

It's no different than people who need pre-exhuast on certain bodyparts in order to feel them work. For example, some people need to pre-exhaust their Lats before rows and really squeeze at the top to feel the exercise, while I can do momentum reps with horrible form and my back is on fire. People are different.

- Curls and triceps extensions (done right) are amazing for elbow health. I've been unable to lift for 5 years now but am doing a bunch of rehab to get back to it. My therapist has me doing a bunch of curls for my elbow issues and it's been working wonders. Even if you don't need curls for bicep size, they have their place to prevent future issues.

- Overall, I agree that it's dumb to focus on curls if you can't even bench 225lbs. I guess my disagreement is that if a beginner focuses on benching 225lbs while doing a set of curls at the end of his workouts, then what's the issue? If I didn't have injuries which absolutely require me to do curls and triceps pushdowns right now, I wouldn't be doing them until I could Bench and Row 225lbs again. But it's not like they impact my recovery, so who really cares?

Like I said in another post here, doing some isolations at the end of the workout doesn't take away recovery from the big stuff. If lateral raises and dumbbell curls take away from your Squat and Bench Press, especially when you're a beginner who can recover super fast, then there's a bigger issue going on. Back in high school, guys I played sports with used bodypart splits and Squatted once a week, and yet many of them hit 315lbs within a year. And they also did a bunch of isolations too.

I don't have a huge problem with anything really. If you have time to waste then feel free to curl away and do whatever else you want for whatever reason. But if you want to have an effective workout in a reasonable time, I think beginners will be best served spending that time learning to properly do the big compound movements. They'll hit a plateau in a few short months and then throw in whatever else you need to bring up to speed. I don't like the idea of majoring in the minors though, and if you can't do the fundamentals yet, then doing the assistance work seems unnecessary. If you've been working out long enough to know that part of your body isn't up to speed then you're probably not a beginner in my eyes and a 5x5 beginner program probably doesn't apply to you. A beginner doesn't know that they need to pre-exhaust anything. A beginner doesn't know that their a "torso dominant" or "limb dominant" person.

Like oblivion said starting strength is a dated program. I know quite a few trainers and almost none of them recommend ss for beginners. You can build a better base and work capacity with other programs. Throwing in an isolation exercise like curls is very beneficial for beginners. It will pay off in the long run for stuff like bicep tendon strength which carries over to the bench and deadlift.

I know quite a few trainers and quite a few trainers are shit at what they do. So I don't hold a lot of faith in them based on their profession alone. A few months of practicing the compound lifts alone isn't going to set anyone back anything. It's just going to get their beginner gains out of the way and get them to their real training maxes so they can start the serious work. I don't see the benefit of a beginner doing isolation curls instead of something like weighted chin ups. I can see the benefit of an intermediate/advanced lifter doing isolation curls after their weighted chin ups though.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

The argument is that building a bigger base with hypertrophy oriented exercises help you fill out your frame faster and gives you a better base for long term development which is true.

However, the majority of people don’t need to worry about long term development they need to increase their strength the fastest way possible and that is done via a linear progression. Why don’t they need to worry about long term development? 1. Old people concerned with general health need to build their strength in the most general way possible so that you know they have the strength to get off the toilet. 2. Athletes that are not powerlifters aren’t concerned with long term development they are concerned with increasing general strength in the fastest way possible to get ready for a season during an offseason again linear progression by being massively stronger without a concern for aesthetics like some morons argue for here
3. A periodized program could take months to go through the various iterations of each mesocyclone whether that be transition,hypertrophy, strength or tapering for a competition which related to number 2 makes no sense for the wider variety of people with the exceptions of optimal powerlifting performance/programming under optimal time constraints in the development of the lifter

 

[Oblivian]

The argument is that building a bigger base with hypertrophy oriented exercises help you fill out your frame faster and gives you a better base for long term development which is true.

However, the majority of people don’t need to worry about long term development they need to increase their strength the fastest way possible and that is done via a linear progression. Why don’t they need to worry about long term development? 1. Old people concerned with general health need to build their strength in the most general way possible so that you know they have the strength to get off the toilet. 2. Athletes that are not powerlifters aren’t concerned with long term development they are concerned with increasing general strength in the fastest way possible to get ready for a season during an offseason again linear progression by being massively stronger without a concern for aesthetics like some morons argue for here
3. A periodized program could take months to go through the various iterations of each mesocyclone whether that be transition,hypertrophy, strength or tapering for a competition which related to number 2 makes no sense for the wider variety of people with the exceptions of optimal powerlifting performance/programming under optimal time constraints in the development of the lifter

This has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments that I've read on this forum. So Starting Strength is essentially for people who just want to make newb gains? You basically admit it isn't the best for people with long term strength goals who want to get past the beginner phase. Congrats - here is a program to get newb gains which can be achieved on basically anything involving the overload principle.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Why this is place is an absolute dump because of people like you.

 

[JimRussel]

Why this is place is an absolute dump because of people like you.

lol what

 

[ROcknrollracing]

lol wut?

 

[Oblivian]

For a while, I wasn't sure if English was his first language. Now I just wonder if he's hammered all of the time that he posts.

 

[A.S. Deep]

I don't have a huge problem with anything really. If you have time to waste then feel free to curl away and do whatever else you want for whatever reason. But if you want to have an effective workout in a reasonable time, I think beginners will be best served spending that time learning to properly do the big compound movements. They'll hit a plateau in a few short months and then throw in whatever else you need to bring up to speed. I don't like the idea of majoring in the minors though, and if you can't do the fundamentals yet, then doing the assistance work seems unnecessary. If you've been working out long enough to know that part of your body isn't up to speed then you're probably not a beginner in my eyes and a 5x5 beginner program probably doesn't apply to you. A beginner doesn't know that they need to pre-exhaust anything. A beginner doesn't know that their a "torso dominant" or "limb dominant" person.

I guess we actually agree then. Six to nine months of Starting Strength (or something similar) to get to 225/315/405 in the Big Three, and then move on from there.

 

[Pitbull]

I guess we actually agree then. Six to nine months of Starting Strength (or something similar) to get to 225/315/405 in the Big Three, and then move on from there.

I don't have a problem with Starting Strength, but I would expect most healthy young people to get those lifts in that time doing a routine with lots of assistance work as well if they are committed. They would also end up with a more balanced physique.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

So much misinformation here it’s sadly laughable.

 

[Pitbull]

So much misinformation here it’s sadly laughable.

You're not actually providing good information yourself.

Do you have a history of training people?

 

[Pitbull]

I can tell most people in this thread don't have any experience training other people and are just going by what they have read, or what worked from them.

There isn't a best way to train someone. Everyone has different needs. I'm currently training somone who after a year squatted 220kg in sleeves, and benched 130kg. He did 5/3/1 style routine (my programming), with loads of assistance exercises including curls twice a week, but he still hit the numbers we aimed for. He had back and shoulder issues we had to work around, and sort out. He needed lots of back, and rear delt work. Squatting, and pressing three times a week while adding weight every workout would have been a silly thing to do. I had another guy who could squat 140kg after just four months. Again he did loads of asstistance work, and neither followed linear progression. I could come up with loads of examples.

When I started out I listened to people say compounds were all you needed to get big arms. Got up to a lean 200lbs at 5'10/11 and still had tiny arms. I then had to work hard to bring them up to the rest of my body. Would have been so much easier to have trained them directly from the start.

The majority of the work would be compound movements. They need to practise them regularly at the start until them can perform them without overthinking it. Assistance work is still useful for a novice as it doesn't take a lot of time, and doesn't eat into recovery much (this is a big advantage). Linear progression isn't necessarily the fastest way to gain strength either. How quickly you add weight to the bar doesn't mean how fast you're getting stronger. There are other ways to progress.

 

[A.S. Deep]

I don't have a problem with Starting Strength, but I would expect most healthy young people to get those lifts in that time doing a routine with lots of assistance work as well if they are committed. They would also end up with a more balanced physique.

Agreed. I guess I'm agnostic about this. Whether one does or doesn't do stuff like curls and lateral raise for a few months doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. If they're not doing isolations for years, then yeah, it's a problem (imbalanced physique, muscular imbalances leading to injury, tendon issues, etc).

 

[Pitbull]

Agreed. I guess I'm agnostic about this. Whether one does or doesn't do stuff like curls and lateral raise for their first 6 months doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. If they're not doing isolations for years, then yeah, it's a problem (imbalanced physique, muscular imbalances leading to injury, tendon issues, etc).

Most of this stuff doesn't matter anyway.

The vast majority of people fail at lifting weights because they don't train often, don't train hard enough, don't eat well for their goals, don't sleep enough, mental health issues, have a bad lifestyle etc etc.
Following optimal programming isn't a main priority for most people when starting out as they aren't suddenly going to live the life straight away. It's just something people on internet forums, or coaches trying to sell something (Rip) like to talk about.

If I posted my routine when I first started training, everyone would have laughed at me and told me I didn't know what I was doing and to follow a good routine. However, I did well in my first year as I had the basics right in and out of the gym. I never missed a session, trained hard, focused on making progress, eat loads, slept a lot, and had a stress free life. Just wish I did 5 minutes of arm work at the end.

 

[Oblivian]

I started lifting around 2007. During this time it's when most were all about Starting Strength and the "compound lifts only" mentality. There were other mentalities such as "don't worry about working the muscle, just the movement" or always worry about the # on the bar on the compounds. I know myself, and many others who had this mentality back then, think it is wrong in retrospect. Back then there was not near as much information or media as there is now. I still think working on progression on the weight on the bar on the main movements is most important, but working your muscle through assistance lifts, isolation, backdown sets, etc. is very important.

I posted Kyle's quote earlier, and I think a lot of experienced lifters agree with the premise of that. Most people starting lifting are not only weak, but incredibly small. Focus on building your body at the same time as building strength. Most likely you can gain just as much strength in the short term and it will be better for you in the long run.