Alan Thrall is Wrong About Almost Everything

[ROcknrollracing]

training isn’t not my profession but yes I train and have trained people of varying populations all the way from people with brain damage to pro athletes.

The overhead press involves the rear delts and is notorious for relieving shoulder problems so I don’t buy your anecdotal argument that they “needed rear delt isolation movements”

and yes any program with intelligent progression and non retarded exercise selection volume/frequency/intensiy are going to get a novice stronger

The starting strength program is about as close to optimal you can get with exercise selection as in working the greatest amount of muscle mass with the greatest effective range of motion. And this is where a general strength athlete should focus if they want to get strong in a hurry.

Sure you can add isolations to the program but the belief that you must for it to be an effective program is ridiculous.

 

[Oblivian]

training isn’t not my profession but yes I train and have trained people of varying populations all the way from people with brain damage to pro athletes.

The overhead press involves the rear delts and is notorious for relieving shoulder problems so I don’t buy your anecdotal argument that they “needed rear delt isolation movements”

and yes any program with intelligent progression and non retarded exercise selection volume/frequency/intensiy are going to get a novice stronger

The starting strength program is about as close to optimal you can get with exercise selection as in working the greatest amount of muscle mass with the greatest effective range of motion. And this is where a general strength athlete should focus if they want to get strong in a hurry.

Sure you can add isolations to the program but the belief that you must for it to be an effective program is ridiculous.

Look at what you said above in bold and what you said below:

The argument is that building a bigger base with hypertrophy oriented exercises help you fill out your frame faster and gives you a better base for long term development which is true.

I really don't know why anyone who is getting into lifting would choose Starting Strength based off of what you have said here. You admit it's not as good for long term results. You admit almost any intelligent program can give a beginner gains. Why not do an intelligent program that has the best long term outlook?

Also, you keep going back to "getting strong in a hurry". Starting Strength is marketed as a beginner program and certainly a large portion of their target market are people who plan to lift long term.

I don't think Starting Strength is a horrible program, but I do think it's very outdated based on all of the info out there due to the rise in popularity of powerlifting and strength training. Most aren't looking for "what gets me strong super fast but isn't optimal long term". Even if I conceded Starting Strength would give the best short term results (which I don't agree with), you downright admitted it's not optimal for people looking to continue gaining strength past the newb gains. A large portion of people getting into lifting are looking for long term results past the newb gains which are incredibly easy to obtain.

 

[JimRussel]

People look at Malanichev now and see a fat guy. This is what he looked like when he was younger.

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

Odd because I've been lifting for years and I've wound up with large arms simply by doing lots of compound pressing and row work. I don't do any isolation with the exception of leg curls and leg raises at low weight with moderate reps at the end of my workout to get blood flow for recovery, and my arms have grown fine with the rest of me. The fact is that triceps make up most of your arm size anyways, and bicep curls don't do much for your total size. If you're doing enough row variations, your arms should grow.

I'm not against isolation movements or barbell curls, I've just never seen a personal need for them and I don't have stick arms. I certainly don't see any need for isolation exercises like curls in a beginner program like 5x5. You should be spending that effort doing squat/deadlift/bench/press instead. It's a much more valuable use for your time. As you progress into an intermediate program that's when I would say to start adding the accessory work for your weakpoints and the isolation movements for the aesthetics.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder or do "powerbuilding" then you need that base of strength to work off of anyways.

Everyone here is being way too dogmatic about what they consider the ideal starting routine. Really overthinking it when any program will pack on gains for a noob as long as he eats and rests enough. In the long run, does it really matter if he curled or not during the first year of his lifting journey?

Genuine question: why would curls be chosen above weighted chin-ups?

In my case, they alleviate elbow tendonitis. If I neglect them I start to develop wicked pain in my bicep which prevents me from squatting or rowing. And I fuckin hate curling- they're the most tedious and boring exercise for me.

If you have the time I think these are worth watching/listening to on the discussion of programming

That's like 5 hours of video there. How about a summary and synopsis?

 

[A.S. Deep]

I still think working on progression on the weight on the bar on the main movements is most important, but working your muscle through assistance lifts, isolation, backdown sets, etc. is very important.

It's no surprise that many big guys train like this. I once trained with a powerlifter (big Asian dude), and him and his teammates basically do one movement for strength and then a bunch of assistance where they focus on the muscle. They wouldn't even log the weight used for accessory. They'd just record it as "some x some" instead of weight x reps.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

To take a phrase from Feigenbaum. There is quite a bit of nuance in determining what is optimal for a wide variety of reasons that I don't feel like going through each one.

The bottom line is starting strength gets you generally stronger faster than any proven efficiency program for a novice. with the caveat you dont have to do starting strength ever in your life to get strong but that isn't the point the point is the above sentence.

This is both an upside and downside because yes you do get stronger faster but you do not fill out your frame like you would with bodybuilding style assistance lifts. Not only that but at a point the addition of too much assistance work(if you are by the book following the program)will impede your ability to recover and overtrain you where this point is is different for different populations

the upside is like I said you get stronger faster which is obviously a good thing in the short term for general strength for daily life for the majority of the population(seasonal athletes, middle aged working man, retired sarcopenia "disease" that needs strength fast for daily life)

when it comes to strength and power sports it gets even more nuanced because(I believe I posted earlier in this thread)you have extremes on different ends of the spectrum where one program can make use of extremely low volume on the main lifts however recovery is built into the program to where you can and MUST do assistance lifts to drive progress while on the other end of the spectrum( I used sheiko as my example)where you are building volume at sub maximal intensities with very little assistance work and both ways can work for differing lifters at various points in a lifters career
hope that helps

 

[Pitbull]

How many people have long term shoulder problems that are fixed by doing the overhead press? For the vast majority of people with long term shoulder issues doing the overhead press won't solve it. A lot of people with shoulder issues aren't able to overhead press as it hurts them. My guy had a lot of problems with his posture, but you think doing compound movements solves everything. Ridiculous! The overhead press won't fix imbalances in the shoulder.

You're just repeating what Rip says.

You say it's the most optimal way to gain strength, but there aren't many success stories from Starting Strength, and I've made people stronger than Ripptoe's best success story (Zack Evetts) did in 6 months, and Rip had to get him to gain 78lbs in six months, most of which was fat, to achieve that. Anyone who claims any program is the most optimal way to build strength and muscle is an idiot.

I've just realised who you are. You're the guy who even back in 2017 was Ripptoe, but didn't know even who Zach Evett was https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/does-anybody-do-5-day-splits.3461089/page-6 and said this about him

I dont know anything about this particular individual but my guess is he did not follow an appropriate diet given his circumstances. It isnt Rips job to make sure the Kid eats correctly.

Then when you were told Rip was proud of his progress said

he was likely happy with the strength he built not the physique which may not have been his goal....i think he was probably some skinny kid who needed to get stronger for some particular goal

Then when I pointed out were were wrong again and Rip was proud of how much lean mass he gained, Rip hilariously claimed he gained 46lbs of lean mass in 6 months, you then back tracked and claimed he looked better than before.


You're so desperate to believe Rippetoe is right about everthing, you will change your opinion to whatever he thinks. This makes having a discussion with you pointless as you're not able to think for yourself.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Zach Evettes is not Rips greatest success story. You need to research Brian Fox and Chase Lindley.

Rip is not an elite athlete coach he is a barbell coach for novices Im pretty sure he has made this clear over the years. There are definitely coaches on his staff that train good athletes though. Look at Julia Pena the up and coming UFC fighter she follows Starting Strength brand methods.

at this point it isn't worth my time to argue with you guys

 

[spdrew2143]

I know quite a few trainers and quite a few trainers are shit at what they do. So I don't hold a lot of faith in them based on their profession alone. A few months of practicing the compound lifts alone isn't going to set anyone back anything. It's just going to get their beginner gains out of the way and get them to their real training maxes so they can start the serious work. I don't see the benefit of a beginner doing isolation curls instead of something like weighted chin ups. I can see the benefit of an intermediate/advanced lifter doing isolation curls after their weighted chin ups though.

Can't argue with that logic...

 

[DoomPatrol]

Can't argue with that logic...

The logic that compound movements are better for developing strength than isolation movements? Yes, I'm sure most everyone would agree with that statement.

I'm just asking anyone to point me to an example of someone who ran a compound moment only beginner program who suffered chicken arm syndrome because they didn't do curls in the first few months. That time is better spent on other compound movements or practicing your main lifts to nail down technique.

The ultimate truth in strength training is that consistency in whatever program you do is most important. Anyone can get results doing any program with results. We're talking about time efficiency. Getting your main lifts to the highest levels are the biggest concerns. Getting your form and technique right through greasing the groove is a bigger concern than curls for girls. Your biggest deficiencies as a true beginner aren't chicken arms.

I haven't even ran a 5x5 program in years. I've been running a wave periodization for the last 6 years of training. So it's not like I'm saying this because I just hopped on Rippetoes dick yesterday. It's been nearly a decade since I ran a program like his.

 

[JimRussel]

Your biggest deficiencies as a true beginner aren't chicken arms.

Bur it’s easier to cure chicken arms as a noob.

 

[spdrew2143]

Zach Evettes is not Rips greatest success story. You need to research Brian Fox and Chase Lindley.

Rip is not an elite athlete coach he is a barbell coach for novices Im pretty sure he has made this clear over the years. There are definitely coaches on his staff that train good athletes though. Look at Julia Pena the up and coming UFC fighter she follows Starting Strength brand methods.

at this point it isn't worth my time to argue with you guys

You only like rip because he's a texan.

 

[DoomPatrol]

Bur it’s easier to cure chicken arms as a noob.

Your arms will grow more if you can load heavier weights to train with. Which large compound movements like benches and rows will help develop. If your arms don't grow doing weighted curl ups I would be highly surprised. I've never seen anyone with chicken arms who deadlifts and benches a lot of weight. Of course after you get into training I would recommend that work because it's good assistance to prevent weakpoints in the major lifts.

 

[Pitbull]

What do you consider a lot of weight on the deadlift and bench press in order to have large arms?

 

[DoomPatrol]

What do you consider a lot of weight on the deadlift and bench press in order to have large arms?

For a beginner lifter, I would say probably 315/225/405 would be reasonable to get to within a few months of training properly depending on their weight and athletic history. But I've never seen anyone pushing bigger weights than that who doesn't have arms to match their torso in a reasonable relative size. They might not be Arnold pythons, but they aren't going to be chicken sized compared to the torso. Do you have some examples?

 

[JimRussel]

Of course after you get into training I would recommend that work because it's good assistance to prevent weakpoints in the major lifts.

yeah, so just start that from day 1 lol...

 

[Smato_rules]

Starting strength worked really well for me when that was all I did. I drank a ton of beer and protein shakes and got strong as fuck but once I stopped with the beer and did other shit like mma it all went to hell. Also not being 24 might have hurt too. It’s honestly hard to find other programs that are as vetted, but people here like 531 better? I’m looking for something better as I just can’t keep up with ss and rip and his minions are insufferable douche bags. Their podcast and forum thread on fighting is one of the stupidest things I’ve seen and is a big reason I abandoned their work

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Yea dude! Do one of the unlimited permutations of 5/31 and show those Rippetoe nuthuggers whose boss around here!

 

[Pitbull]

For a beginner lifter, I would say probably 315/225/405 would be reasonable to get to within a few months of training properly depending on their weight and athletic history. But I've never seen anyone pushing bigger weights than that who doesn't have arms to match their torso in a reasonable relative size. They might not be Arnold pythons, but they aren't going to be chicken sized compared to the torso. Do you have some examples?

Me!

At one point I was a lean 200lbs (maybe195lbs. Going off memory) at 5'10/11 and had 14 inch arms. I looked awful. My deadlift was 230kg (500lbs), bench around 120kg (265lbs) and squat maybe was 170kg, but I can't remember. I've built my arms up to 15 inches now, but people still comment on how small my arms are compared to my legs. I wish I did more more arm work at the start. Takes minutes and doesn't eat into recovery at all.

I think the problem is you got big arms just from compounds, so assume everyone else can as well.
This is the problem with people having strong opinions on how everyone should train (Rip!). People have got big and strong in many different ways.

 

[JimRussel]

Yea dude! Do one of the unlimited permutations of 5/31 and show those Rippetoe nuthuggers whose boss around here!

You should try Starting Strength if you could stick to a program for more than the first week.