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Alan Thrall is Wrong About Almost Everything

Three sets of DB curls twice a week would take you a total of about 12 mins, including generous rest times between sets.

That's an extra 12 minutes a beginner could spend practicing technique on the major compound lifts that require lots of practice to perfect. Again, I could squeeze an extra 10 minutes in jerking off in the bathroom for cardio, but it's not a good use of my time. Starting Strength is a beginner program. It's not meant to be done for a long time. It's meant to bring your baseline of strength up and to perfect techniques so you can start a more involved program that includes as many worthless curls you ever could want.
 
I don't think Starting Strength has aged well. It used to be all the rage back here pre-2010, but there was also a lot less information available. I think you'll find that many lifters now advocate a lot more assistance and focusing on hypertrophy for beginners. Honestly, any program with overload should produce gains for newbs. I honestly think Zach's case is a prime example of some of the downfalls of Starting Strength.
 
It’s never too early to start building WMDs attached to your shoulders, big guy.

Then weighted chin ups would be a better choice than curls if you need to try and attach a WMD to a Stits Sky Baby body. You need a frame to put them guns on first, and I've never seen this chicken arm syndrome that you guys talk about. Never seen a dude with jacked torso and skinny arms because he doesn't curl. Seen plenty of people who don't curl and have big arms (myself included). Again, if you want big arms, then you need big triceps not big biceps. So you're better off with close grip bench and stuff like that.
 
I think you'll find that many lifters now advocate a lot more assistance and focusing on hypertrophy for beginners.

To put it simply, if you’re interested in powerlifting specifically, building as much muscle as possible when you’re a noob will give you a much better foundation for strength gains and staying healthy when you move into more specified training down the road.

High rep isolation stuff is good for looking jakt, but it’s also really great for keeping your joints/body healthy as the weights get heavier.
 
Again, if you want big arms, then you need big triceps not big biceps. So you're better off with close grip bench and stuff like that.
Dips: the leg press of the upper body.
 
Odd because I've been lifting for years and I've wound up with large arms simply by doing lots of compound pressing and row work. I don't do any isolation with the exception of leg curls and leg raises at low weight with moderate reps at the end of my workout to get blood flow for recovery, and my arms have grown fine with the rest of me. The fact is that triceps make up most of your arm size anyways, and bicep curls don't do much for your total size. If you're doing enough row variations, your arms should grow.

I'm not against isolation movements or barbell curls, I've just never seen a personal need for them and I don't have stick arms. I certainly don't see any need for isolation exercises like curls in a beginner program like 5x5. You should be spending that effort doing squat/deadlift/bench/press instead. It's a much more valuable use for your time. As you progress into an intermediate program that's when I would say to start adding the accessory work for your weakpoints and the isolation movements for the aesthetics.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder or do "powerbuilding" then you need that base of strength to work off of anyways.
A lot of up to date programs have you do curls. I did a tsa and juggernaut program this year that had had curls 2-3x a week. Very beneficial for the bench.
 
Genuine question: why would curls be chosen above weighted chin-ups?
 
A lot of up to date programs have you do curls. I did a tsa and juggernaut program this year that had had curls 2-3x a week. Very beneficial for the bench.

CWS developed Juggernaut system aimed for intermediate and advanced lifters.
 
Genuine question: why would curls be chosen above weighted chin-ups?


Because people nut their pants over the idea of curling compared to the more boring effective method of compound movements.
 
Genuine question: why would curls be chosen above weighted chin-ups?

- isolate the biceps without loading anything else.

- ability to adjust resistance so you can do more curls in one set than you can chin ups.

- elbow health.
 
Because people nut their pants over the idea of curling compared to the more boring effective method of compound movements.

Your mindset was similar to most on this forum many years ago, but many would disagree at this point. This isn't just with curls too. Other isolation movements and hypertrophy work has been found to be beneficial. I think Kyle Keough (Keosawa on here from a while ago) did a reddit AMA and here is what he had to say on someone looking to get into powerlifting:

Focus a ton on physique development for the first few years--train like a bro who squats, benches, and deadlifts. Read the canon on training, but avoid using someone else's training program.

I know Steve Gentili and Garrett Fear have been working with some beginners at Indy City. You'll see isolation and hypertrophy work as well.

Even on the compound lifts in general, I think a lot of beginners can benefit from more backdown sets or variations focusing on muscle development.
 
Plenty of novice lifters are using jugg ai. I've seen their templates and they incorporate curls.

I guess you keep missing that context I provided where I said isolation exercises make sense in an intermediate and advanced program for a variety of reasons. And just because a beginner can run wave periodization doesn't mean it's the most effective use of their time. Linear progression makes more sense to me for a starter than anything else. As a beginner I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple and straightforward. Do 5 sets at this weight and add more next time. Do this until you can't anymore. Then reset and go again. I think a beginner will get faster results running a simple linear progression over wave.
 
- isolate the biceps without loading anything else.

- ability to adjust resistance so you can do more curls in one set than you can chin ups.

- elbow health.
Yeah, I'm just not a big fan of curls myself; straight barbell curls give my elbow gyp (fine if someone wants to do them though). I guess I could do dumbbell curls but chins are the one exercise I'm reasonable at and are doing the job at the moment.
Conceptually though I agree and I do some isolation/hypertrophy work like dumbbell lateral raises, fly's etc.

I also think there's an argument that beginners should train the compounds (at least for some sets) in higher rep ranges than 5s.
 
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even at the extreme end of powerlifting there are different ways to skin a cat so to speak. You have westside on one end of the spectrum whose focus is supplemental and assistance exercises with low volume yet high intensity on main lifts/variants. On the polar opposite end you have Sheiko whose focus is a lot of volume on the main lifts yet very little assistance exercises and both ways work.

Just about any other athlete is going to have better performance results focusing on the main lifts/variants and sport specific work

throwing in some curls for vanity is fine but it isn't going to do much to increase performance in that sport

nobody should throw one method completely out because different methods work for different goals
 
I guess you keep missing that context I provided where I said isolation exercises make sense in an intermediate and advanced program for a variety of reasons. And just because a beginner can run wave periodization doesn't mean it's the most effective use of their time. Linear progression makes more sense to me for a starter than anything else. As a beginner I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple and straightforward. Do 5 sets at this weight and add more next time. Do this until you can't anymore. Then reset and go again. I think a beginner will get faster results running a simple linear progression over wave.
Uh what? You're jumping around on topics too much.
 
Uh what? You're jumping around on topics too much.


I've made the exact same point this entire time. Starting strength is a good program for its intended user, the true beginner. Wave programming and accessory work is meant for and most effective with intermediate and advanced lifters, like 531 and JTS. I think isolation exercises and things like curls are a bad use of time for a true beginner, but have uses as you start getting some time under the bar. Starting Strength already includes things like chin ups in their third phase of the program, which covers the biceps vanity exercise well enough for a beginner.

I don't think that's very confusing for a stance on this topic. Plenty of people can get strong/big/aesthetically pleasing in a number of different ways. Plenty of people do it. You can get strong and big on nothing but cable machines, but nobody is going to recommend that over barbell work. The same can be applied with programming styles. We're not reinventing the wheel here. You can only reap the benefits of a linear progression each workout for so long.
 
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