aikido vs sub-wrestling

[EGDM]

People always do this stuff with Aikido to try to apologize for it. They take the minority examples of people actually being good and use those to defend it. Even in the shittiest BJJ schools I've been to, there is usually at least one guy who somehow managed to get a little bit good. It doesn't make the school any less shitty or fake. Real martial arts don't just make a few people good; they make everyone good.

When someone asks if your martial art is effective, and you have to respond with a treatise on how your art actually transcends that question, you fucked up a long time ago bro. The answer should just be "Yes" with an immediate demonstration of it.

This is where you are missing the point. You seem to think that people who practice Aikido are, at their core, trying to become the most effective fighters they can be. This is not the case. Think of Aikido as martial technique for vegetarians. A dude that wants a steak, such as you, will look at tofu and say "This isn't a steak; this is bullshit." A vegetarian, on the other hand, will say "Yes, this is something I'm willing to eat" and enjoy it. That primal, meaty flavor you say they're all missing out on is precisely what they're not interested in. (And a rare few of them can grill a decent steak anyway.)

Does that make them inferior fighters? Yeah. But who really cares? They don't, so why do you?

 

[Balto]

You've mentioned your Aikido friend before. And said he was quite good in rolling. And at one point were defending and even praising Aikido.
But now you seem to be rationalizing things by saying he is Aikijiutsu and not Aikdo whereas before you were calling him an Aikido guy. Is he pure Aikijiujitsu or Aikido? Or are you just trying to keep that distinction so that it matches your general outlook on Aikido?

Yeah there seem to be alot of crap clubs that look more like star trek tech nerd conventions in the US. I agree with that. But to extrapolate that to the whole martial art based on that seems incorrect.

I think the main problem is that Aikido was originally only supposed to be learned after establishing a base in another art. (The original prerequisite was that you had to be a judo or shotokan karate blackbelt to learn Aikido). It's basically high level grip fighting and striking but you need a firm grappling or striking base (preferably both).

Even the guy who runs the IBJJF broadcasts and Rolled Up is a huge Aikido guy and Aikido blackbelt with a firm base in BJJ. (BJJ Brownbelt):
Aikido Randori @ OCBC Aikido Club - YouTube

Aiki Push Hands by Jake McKee - YouTube

I think you're talking about my friend in Aikijujutsu from college. His style was Aikijujutsu. Actually, to be very technical about it, his style included Aikijujutsu as an element. It had also Atemi Jutsu, Iai Jutsu, and Jo Jutsu. It was basically modeled after the older ryu of Jiu Jitsu. I doubt it was really a true koryu or anything; probably some gendai budo modeled on the older stuff. If I grouped him as Aikido, it was probably because I was discussing the specific techniques like ikkyo, nikkyo, etc.

He had the same general opinion about Aikido. When I talked to him about what Aikido class was like, he just laughed and said yeah they are pretty much that way.

Not sure why you wouldn't extrapolate what the vast majority of practitioners do to an entire art. People have no problem saying BJJ is mainly best at groundwork and Judo is mainly best at throwing. It follows that Aikido is mainly best at being full of shit.

Edit: I found the website for his style. It looks like a koryu influenced type of style without actually being one.

The Rinpa Foundation - Home

I'm not saying that it was the type of training I preferred. But at least they trained with resisting opponents and could pull off their moves live to a reasonable degree.

 

[EGDM]

I did this Aikido class once...

Even with what I just said, that group sounds utterly asinine. In my school, complaining about your partner delivering an on-balance attack is a great way to guarantee a strike following the grab the next time around, and more than likely from the instructor.

 

[Balto]

This is where you are missing the point. You seem to think that people who practice Aikido are, at their core, trying to become the most effective fighters they can be. This is not the case. Think of Aikido as martial technique for vegetarians. A dude that wants a steak, such as you, will look at tofu and say "This isn't a steak; this is bullshit." A vegetarian, on the other hand, will say "Yes, this is something I'm willing to eat" and enjoy it. That primal, meaty flavor you say they're all missing out on is precisely what they're not interested in. (And a rare few of them can grill a decent steak anyway.)

Does that make them inferior fighters? Yeah. But who really cares? They don't, so why do you?

I don't really care that they are inferior fighters. They can do their dance all they want on their mat.

I just find it funny that every time I point out that it is a weak style, someone always comes on and says "No it's not." Then they bring up Sun Moon or Won Hung Lo or Sum Hwite Gai and say that he should show me the error of my ways but magically he never can because that would run counter to the beliefs of Aikido.

All I said was that Aikido is lame and feels like a bizarro world alternate dimension. That is true.

 

[deadlizard]

This is where you are missing the point. You seem to think that people who practice Aikido are, at their core, trying to become the most effective fighters they can be. This is not the case. Think of Aikido as martial technique for vegetarians. A dude that wants a steak, such as you, will look at tofu and say "This isn't a steak; this is bullshit." A vegetarian, on the other hand, will say "Yes, this is something I'm willing to eat" and enjoy it. That primal, meaty flavor you say they're all missing out on is precisely what they're not interested in. (And a rare few of them can grill a decent steak anyway.)

Does that make them inferior fighters? Yeah. But who really cares? They don't, so why do you?

If this is the case, Aikido shouldn't be marketed as a fighting technique. Because it's not. It should be marketed as a dance lesson.

 

[Speed BR]

If this is the case, Aikido shouldn't be marketed as a fighting technique. Because it's not. It should be marketed as a dance lesson.

Yep, that is the whole problem with Aikido and other larping systems. They do not train against opponents actually trying to resist, yet they market themselves as the ultimate fighting discipline.

 

[Balto]

BruceLeeMMA,

You might also be picking up on an evolution and hardening of my positions as I gain more experience.

I've been in the martial arts for 22 years now. During that time, I've changed my techniques so many times. I've done Karate, Muay Thai, Kali, Jun Fan, CSW, BJJ, Judo, and those are just the ones that I spent at least a year in. Even within the same art, say BJJ for example, the techniques have changed dramatically. There were no berimbolos and 50/50 guard when I got my blue belt.

I was talking about this once with one of my best training partners. We started early in BJJ together and had the same early instructors. He's a brown belt now and has studied a bunch of other arts as well in his MMA pursuit.

We were wondering how we ended up getting to a reasonable level in BJJ when we started as white belts training under a blue belt. That seems impossible now, yet we did it. We concluded that it was because although our technical knowledge was quite lacking back then and has changed a lot since, our knowledge of how to train was correct and has stayed the same. Since we approached training realistically and scientifically, we were bound to get better by seeking out knowledge and working hard.

I've since realized that this is also the common thread that runs through all of my training. Even though I don't actively practice them anymore, I can jump into a class in any one of those arts and pretty much fit right in. It is because the training attitude is no different than that of BJJ. We are concerned about what works. There is not much tolerance for BS. The techniques are different, but that matters little compared to the training attitude.

The distinction between old Jiu Jitsu and its major children arts (Judo, BJJ, and Aikido) is mainly one of training attitude. Otherwise, all of the techniques can be traced back. Judo and BJJ made some positive changes in training attitude, and Aikido made some negative changes. That is far more important than the techniques.

The poor training attitude of Aikido is just a poison. It deludes people and muddles the definition of martial art. It's not something I can halfway pretend is okay anymore.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You need to take a xanax, man. Aikido is graceful and fun.

Most of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting as well, but it has merit on its own nonetheless. Everything is not about fighting. You will statistically suffer worse injuries from training to fight than the risk of them in an actual fight. If you worry so much, train with knives or carry firearms. Get out of 1993, man.

what a fucking troll...

In bjj I learn how to take someone down, how to control him on the ground, even muchhhh bigger guys, I learn how to choke someone from weird angles that your stupid eye wont ever see it coming, I "wrestle" live full resisntence with people who normally outweights me for a LOOOOOT, so im pretty used to have someone on top of me, and im pretty use to be on top of people, on side and to tie people up... wtf are you use too tough boy??? While a lot of bjj is for the sport side, the basics remain, and wtf is this not 93 anymore? did the whole population of the world turned pro MMA fighters?

someone please ban this troll.

 

[buhriyon]

I remember being a teenager in the nineties, when seagal movies were huge; I thought aikido was the absolute best. How times have changed.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

the distinction between old jiu jitsu and its major children arts (judo, bjj, and aikido) is mainly one of training attitude. Otherwise, all of the techniques can be traced back. Judo and bjj made some positive changes in training attitude, and aikido made some negative changes. That is far more important than the techniques.

The poor training attitude of aikido is just a poison. It deludes people and muddles the definition of martial art. It's not something i can halfway pretend is okay anymore.

+100.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I remember being a teenager in the nineties, when seagal movies were huge; I thought aikido was the absolute best. How times have changed.

I still have friends (on thier 30's) that think that Aikido guys will utterly destroy pro MMA fighters, they just chose not to because of their belief or some crap like that.

 

[luckyshot]

At least they have a nice gym.

 

[rekd]

what a fucking troll...

In bjj I learn how to take someone down, how to control him on the ground, even muchhhh bigger guys, I learn how to choke someone from weird angles that your stupid eye wont ever see it coming, I "wrestle" live full resisntence with people who normally outweights me for a LOOOOOT, so im pretty used to have someone on top of me, and im pretty use to be on top of people, on side and to tie people up... wtf are you use too tough boy??? While a lot of bjj is for the sport side, the basics remain, and wtf is this not 93 anymore? did the whole population of the world turned pro MMA fighters?

someone please ban this troll.

At least you have 3 stripes instead of the other guy's 1. But still, buddy...you're an infant in this sport. Don't purport to lecture people on BJJ when you have a fuckin blue belt.

I said MOST of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting. That is a true statement. I also said that statistically you face a higher injury risk from training than from actual fights finding you (unless you go looking for them, which is your prerogative). This is also true.

I find sherdog continually odd because people react so viscerally to true statements and with outrage. I mean how DARE I, huh?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

At least you have 3 stripes instead of the other guy's 1. But still, buddy...you're an infant in this sport. Don't purport to lecture people on BJJ when you have a fuckin blue belt.

I said MOST of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting. That is a true statement. I also said that statistically you face a higher injury risk from training than from actual fights finding you (unless you go looking for them, which is your prerogative). This is also true.

I find sherdog continually odd because people react so viscerally to true statements and with outrage. I mean how DARE I, huh?

I have almost 3 years of doing this, he could have several more, and there are white belts who have like 5 or 6 years, belt doesnt always translate to it...

And I repit, not all sport bjj transfers to fighting, but the core of the art, wich is controlling someone on the ground, and pretty much crush limbs and choke people out stands, and most of the times, its much better to know how to control people on the ground than punching and fancy kicking.

 

[Balto]

At least you have 3 stripes instead of the other guy's 1. But still, buddy...you're an infant in this sport. Don't purport to lecture people on BJJ when you have a fuckin blue belt.

I said MOST of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting. That is a true statement. I also said that statistically you face a higher injury risk from training than from actual fights finding you (unless you go looking for them, which is your prerogative). This is also true.

I find sherdog continually odd because people react so viscerally to true statements and with outrage. I mean how DARE I, huh?

I would not say most of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting, and I train sport BJJ. That doesn't mean that you will need to use BJJ in every fight. But if I ended up grappling close in, I would probably be using mainly BJJ. I have used it in such situations too.

You mentioned earlier about training with knives and carrying firearms. I am trained with the knife and the pistol. I don't really practice with the knife anymore, but I practice with the pistol dry fire every couple of days and live fire every month or so.

I actually feel my empty hand training is more valuable than my weapons training. If you train with weapons without knowing how to fight without them, you become very psychologically dependent on them. You feel exposed without your weapon of training, and if you happen to be disarmed or caught unarmed you will mentally break down.

With a solid base of unarmed training, it reinforces the proper attitude that weapons are just tools. They have no power by themselves. The real weapon is me, and the knife/stick/gun/pen/improvised object is just an extension to magnify that.

You probably are more likely to be injured in athletic activities than in a real fight. But the injuries would be similar or worse in most other recreational sports.

I guess you could just sit on your ass and get fat. Tougher to get injured that way. Watch out for those heart attacks though.

 

[luckyshot]

At least you have 3 stripes instead of the other guy's 1. But still, buddy...you're an infant in this sport. Don't purport to lecture people on BJJ when you have a fuckin blue belt.

You shouldn't use words like "purport" on SD if you want people to understand you.

I said MOST of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting. That is a true statement. I also said that statistically you face a higher injury risk from training than from actual fights finding you (unless you go looking for them, which is your prerogative). This is also true.

Even Daniel Gracie said 80% of BJJ is useless for MMA. If 80 % of jiu-jitsu is irrelevant for MMA, then 90% is useless for actual fighting, although the attributes it trains are invaluable.

I find sherdog continually odd because people react so viscerally to true statements and with outrage. I mean how DARE I, huh?

Haha... get used to it, brother. I've been here since '04 and it is BY FAR worse than it has ever been.

BTW, you should stop trolling in my thread.

 

[Balto]

Even Daniel Gracie said 80% of BJJ is useless for MMA. If 80 % of jiu-jitsu is irrelevant for MMA, then 90% is useless for actual fighting, although the attributes it trains are invaluable.

That doesn't really follow.

If you're known as a one dimensional BJJ guy in MMA, the guy you are fighting is going to do his research ahead of time and make a game plan to avoid going to the ground with you. This makes it much harder to be one dimensional in MMA against a trained opponent than against a random guy. Your opponent knows you are one dimensional and will train to exploit it.

It's easier to get away with being one dimensional in a random situation because the guy hasn't trained to take you out of that dimension. A pure Muay Thai guy would get annihilated in MMA, but in a random scenario I'd give him a pretty decent shot due to his hard practical training.

 

[Gabicho]

Turkey does have a strong wrestling tradition, but I dont think they use subs.

They do use subs.

My wrestling coach was coached by a turkish wrestler, about 40 years ago.
They taught him many submissions.

He even knows the turkish names for those submissions.

 

[Patrick F Carey]

my coach is also a legit turkish wrestler (many time greco, freestyle champion, bjj black belt) but he calls bjj still

 

[luckyshot]

That doesn't really follow.

If you're known as a one dimensional BJJ guy in MMA, the guy you are fighting is going to do his research ahead of time and make a game plan to avoid going to the ground with you. This makes it much harder to be one dimensional in MMA against a trained opponent than against a random guy. Your opponent knows you are one dimensional and will train to exploit it.

It's easier to get away with being one dimensional in a random situation because the guy hasn't trained to take you out of that dimension. A pure Muay Thai guy would get annihilated in MMA, but in a random scenario I'd give him a pretty decent shot due to his hard practical training.

If you believe most RBSD instructors, the ground is the last place you want to be in a fight, unless you are a cop working with a team. Of course, you might not have the choice, so BJJ is definitely valuable, but it shouldn't be anyone's first plan. Has nothing to do with not wanting to be one dimensional, has to do with not wanting to roll around on concrete and possibly getting your head kicked in.