aikido vs sub-wrestling

I know a few aikido style wrist locks that can be used to control a person that I've gotten pretty good at using.

They only work on compliant people and give me a "certain" amount of control. If they don't work it is just an indicator to start grappling or hitting. If I have the control hold and it stops working it is an indicator for me to start grappling or hitting.

It works great for controlling people smaller and weaker than yourself. I use it on my kids all the time, for fun of course. It doesn't work on my wife though because she resists too much.
 
If you believe most RBSD instructors, the ground is the last place you want to be in a fight, unless you are a cop working with a team. Of course, you might not have the choice, so BJJ is definitely valuable, but it shouldn't be anyone's first plan. Has nothing to do with not wanting to be one dimensional, has to do with not wanting to roll around on concrete and possibly getting your head kicked in.

I follow that. BJJ is more of a backup plan for me. I guess I was just thinking of a different definition of useful for fighting.

I was considering a technique useful for fighting if I could realistically see myself using it for its intended purpose in its usual context. So by that criteria, most things in BJJ would be useful if you found yourself in that context (guard, mount, side control, knee on belly, back control, etc.)

The only things you would exclude would be those that are so fancy or specialized that you just couldn't see using them in a random scenario. Things like berimbolos, 50/50 guard, inverted guard, etc. would probably fit into that category. I guess you could make a case for using those for real too, but it starts to get a little iffy. Overall, those things make up a fairly small part of my BJJ game.

But yes I agree that spending a lot of time on the ground is not a good primary plan in a lot of situations. There are some good standing BJJ techniques (RNC for example) that work along with that, but those probably do comprise less than 10% of BJJ overall.
 
It's like any cult, you get involved without seeing the ridiculousness, then you learn to sort of mentally wall off the ridiculousness as it becomes apparent, then you don't see it as ridiculous at all.

I think BJJ also often verges on this kind of nonsense. Spirituality in the martial arts all too often is just another word for grovelling before authority. You gotta double-leg it, before it gets too caught up in its own ludicrousness.

Except in BJJ it is not a Master that is revered and idolized; it's a can of coconut water.
 
Except in BJJ it is not a Master that is revered and idolized; it's a can of coconut water.

I know a gym in which the instructor makes you bow to him and students wear his face on shirts, get tattoos of the gym, and put decals of the gym on their cars. To me that is cultish...
 
I've never really understood the hate that people level at Aikido. I've been on these forums for years, and there have been countless threads about "BJJ for self-defense" or "street fighting" and the general response has almost always been, "I don't train BJJ for self-defense" and "I avoid fighting on the 'streetz' because I'm not in 8th grade any more", etc, etc. Which makes me wonder why people do BJJ. Me? I do it for fun and to stay in shape. Same reason I do Judo. Is it effective in a street fight? I think so, but then so isn't running really fast... I just don't think that's the reason that sprinters sprint. I've found that close-up magic isn't very effective in a street fight either, but I like to practice anyway, because it's fun.

Roger Gracie says 80% of BJJ is useless in MMA. How many of you are planning on quitting BJJ now, because it's mostly useless in MMA? Probably not many. Why? Because there's a good chance that you're not practice BJJ simply because of how effective it is in MMA.

Do Aikido. Get out of the house. Socialize. Move around a bit. Maybe learn a thing or two about footwork and body control. Learn ukemi, and tai sabaki. Have fun.

Maybe I'm sheltered, but I've never had an Aikidoka come up and tell me how badly he'd kick my ass. Just hasn't happened despite the fact that I've done Judo demonstrations at the local Aikido club. Everyone has been always been respectful and curious, asking lots of questions, and seemed to have a lot of fun trying out some Judo stuff. Sure, they went right back to what they were doing after we left, but while we were there, they were just having fun. Change the situation - have an Aikdoka go to a BJJ school - and see how respectful people are, and how much fun they're having. Sometimes BJJ practitioners take themselves WAY too seriously.

Except in BJJ it is not a Master that is revered and idolized; it's a can of coconut water.

Haha, true! If one more person tries to talk to me about Acai, I may scream.
 
This is a reasonable response, but I think it is missing the most important point. Let me see if I can clarify some:

I've never really understood the hate that people level at Aikido. I've been on these forums for years, and there have been countless threads about "BJJ for self-defense" or "street fighting" and the general response has almost always been, "I don't train BJJ for self-defense" and "I avoid fighting on the 'streetz' because I'm not in 8th grade any more", etc, etc. Which makes me wonder why people do BJJ. Me? I do it for fun and to stay in shape. Same reason I do Judo. Is it effective in a street fight? I think so, but then so isn't running really fast... I just don't think that's the reason that sprinters sprint. I've found that close-up magic isn't very effective in a street fight either, but I like to practice anyway, because it's fun.

Things like Capoeira and Tai Chi never seem to get the same amount of hate. The reason is that those arts are much more upfront about what they are about. Capoeira is just as frequently described by its teachers as a dance as a martial art; almost no teachers will describe Aikido as a dance to a prospective student. When people hop in to a slow motion Tai Chi class in the park, they think of it like another form of Yoga, and that thought is encouraged by the instructors. Aikido is almost invariably sold as a practical martial art on some level, even if the practicality is of secondary concern.

The biggest problem with Aikido is that it deliberately treads in a gray area. Ideally, it was probably intended to be removed from real fighting enough to develop people spiritually, but still retain some practical application when necessary. In practice, it does exactly the opposite. It's far enough removed from real fighting to give its practitioners a false sense of ability that fails them dramatically when they need it most.

I know that if you or I were to practice Aikido, we would not fall into that trap. I'll get into why that is, and why we can't assume that most Aikido students are the same as us later on.

Roger Gracie says 80% of BJJ is useless in MMA. How many of you are planning on quitting BJJ now, because it's mostly useless in MMA? Probably not many. Why? Because there's a good chance that you're not practice BJJ simply because of how effective it is in MMA.

That stat is taken out of context here. While I do find it generally true for MMA (if I were going to take an MMA fight, the last thing I'd be training given my background is more BJJ), it's true for everything else too. The vast majority of Judo is useless for MMA. So is Muay Thai. Even Wrestling and Boxing are majority useless. There was something on here about Chael Sonnen saying that most of his Wrestling was useless for MMA. And, to take it a bit further, the majority of competitive MMA is useless for real situations because they are just so different. Getting mount on a guy and pounding his head into the concrete is not always going to be the best strategy unless you like jail time.

The point is that almost nothing you train competitively will have a majority of the techniques transfer over to real situations. Yet, for any of those arts listed above, I would say the practitioner would have a decent chance in a real situation.

How can that be?

Do Aikido. Get out of the house. Socialize. Move around a bit. Maybe learn a thing or two about footwork and body control. Learn ukemi, and tai sabaki. Have fun.

The difference is the training mentality. It is far, far more important than the techniques.

In Judo or BJJ, the student is taught how to handle himself under the extreme pressure of fully resisting opponents in competition. Everyone who has competed knows that adrenaline dump and butterflies feeling. That is an extremely good simulation of the stress of a real encounter.

Regardless of the techniques being used, the most important skill is staying cool under pressure. When you get punched in the face, do you stay calm and use your training, or do you panic and get confused? When the opponent tackles you, how do you react? Those are the truly important questions. These have also been proven in experiments to be of far greater importance in a real situation than technical training. No matter how technically trained someone may be, if he is not trained to react smoothly under pressure, it will all fall apart.

Maybe I'm sheltered, but I've never had an Aikidoka come up and tell me how badly he'd kick my ass. Just hasn't happened despite the fact that I've done Judo demonstrations at the local Aikido club. Everyone has been always been respectful and curious, asking lots of questions, and seemed to have a lot of fun trying out some Judo stuff. Sure, they went right back to what they were doing after we left, but while we were there, they were just having fun. Change the situation - have an Aikdoka go to a BJJ school - and see how respectful people are, and how much fun they're having. Sometimes BJJ practitioners take themselves WAY too seriously.

As I mentioned above, if you or I were to train Aikido, it would probably be a neutral to slightly positive effect for us. We'd at least get something out of it, and if not no harm done. I don't see how I could possibly put up with training something as inefficiently as done in Aikido, but I won't say that I learned absolutely nothing from my handful of experiences.

The difference between us and students who do only Aikido is that we have the proper context to evaluate real training. We know what it is like to perform under pressure, and thus we know what is needed to train for real. We can take parts of Aikido and practice incorporating them against true resistance, which eventually would lead to us being able to use them in a real scenario. It is because of our knowledge from Judo and BJJ that we can make Aikido somewhat useful.

The huge, huge problem with Aikido is that the art is deliberately set up to prevent that discovery by its students. Real resistance is highly discouraged so that those students never learn what we already know. It's exactly the opposite of Judo and BJJ which teach the truth about martial arts via true resistance right off the bat.

Aikido intentionally strings its students along for years (decades?) without letting them discover this. That is just wrong. It deludes people. It would not delude us because we already know, but for the people who don't have the benefit of our background, it is terrible.

As far as taking martial arts seriously, I very much do. I am a martial arts zealot. I want to spread the truth of real martial arts to people. I have seen many students deluded for years. It's not just an Aikido thing; I've seen it in BJJ and other arts too. It makes me mad every time I see it. It is horrible to exploit people that way.

I don't take my own self too seriously, but I take the martial arts (much greater than myself) very seriously. What I see in that video is a whole school of people who just got owned by a grappler who isn't even good -- from his website, he appears to be a fraud. That is serious to me.

Haha, true! If one more person tries to talk to me about Acai, I may scream.

I think it is pretty tasty, but the miracle food stuff is ridiculous.
 
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I know a gym in which the instructor makes you bow to him and students wear his face on shirts, get tattoos of the gym, and put decals of the gym on their cars. To me that is cultish...

lmao, really???? please tell me this is true, it will make my day, awesome!
 
Things like Capoeira and Tai Chi never seem to get the same amount of hate. The reason is that those arts are much more upfront about what they are about. Capoeira is just as frequently described by its teachers as a dance as a martial art; almost no teachers will describe Aikido as a dance to a prospective student. When people hop in to a slow motion Tai Chi class in the park, they think of it like another form of Yoga, and that thought is encouraged by the instructors. Aikido is almost invariably sold as a practical martial art on some level, even if the practicality is of secondary concern.

I have to take issue with this as I did Aikido to blue belt, across a couple of different ryus. I would not say that anyone there ever really advertised it as practical martial art, certainly not something that would be functional for at least a decade. Aikido is very upfront that this shit will not work for you for a long time.

As far as working against the same type of sloppy tackles as the other TMAs demonstrate, I suppose after a lot of practice, it works as well as they do. In fact, I knew bouncers who used Aikido techniques to control passably compliant drunks, and a dude I used to train with put down a would-be purse snatcher with a kokyu nage, then pinned him for the cops. Aikido works. How "well" it works, especially against purpose technique, that's another story, but there are lots of examples where the dumbest crap works in the "real world."

However, ragging on Aikido as ineffective when you have Miyaos and Rafa using the whole berimbolo game, cmon. People STILL sell BJJ as you will win fights, you will dominate in the street, you will be a badass, and all that BS. Look at the people in F12, minds are getting blown out of heads when Roger or Chael say most of what they trained is not useful for MMA. Lots of people want to make bjj "more relevant" for mma, talking about banning this or that technique or position. It's absurd. We have MMA if you want to do MMA. BJJ was never GOOD MMA in the first place! That is the error. It was just better than the other forms of it 20 years ago. A journeyman MMA fighter of today would KTFO Rickson in 30 seconds with as shitty as his posture, punching, and overall standup work was.

BJJ *NEVER* dominated in the street. Numbers and guns did...it was fkin Rio for christ's sake. Luta livre guys were known for carrying guns...ask the guys up your lineages for some stories. BJJ dominated in controlled fights, effectively social status posturing by males, the same as walruses and polar bears and bighorn sheep arbitrate their differences.

As far as "dependency" on the weapon from your earlier post...a professional fighter (aka soldier) has a very different perspective on this. Essentially if you lose this weapon, you are fucked. You may live and you may die, absolutely try to keep fighting, but you fucked up
 
However, ragging on Aikido as ineffective when you have Miyaos and Rafa using the whole berimbolo game, cmon. People STILL sell BJJ as you will win fights, you will dominate in the street, you will be a badass, and all that BS. Look at the people in F12, minds are getting blown out of heads when Roger or Chael say most of what they trained is not useful for MMA. Lots of people want to make bjj "more relevant" for mma, talking about banning this or that technique or position. It's absurd. We have MMA if you want to do MMA. BJJ was never GOOD MMA in the first place! That is the error. It was just better than the other forms of it 20 years ago. A journeyman MMA fighter of today would KTFO Rickson in 30 seconds with as shitty as his posture, punching, and overall standup work was.

It is pretty clear that you are either trolling or that you have never trained.
 
However, ragging on Aikido as ineffective when you have Miyaos and Rafa using the whole berimbolo game, cmon. People STILL sell BJJ as you will win fights, you will dominate in the street, you will be a badass, and all that BS. Look at the people in F12, minds are getting blown out of heads when Roger or Chael say most of what they trained is not useful for MMA. Lots of people want to make bjj "more relevant" for mma, talking about banning this or that technique or position. It's absurd. We have MMA if you want to do MMA. BJJ was never GOOD MMA in the first place! That is the error. It was just better than the other forms of it 20 years ago. A journeyman MMA fighter of today would KTFO Rickson in 30 seconds with as shitty as his posture, punching, and overall standup work was.

BJJ *NEVER* dominated in the street. Numbers and guns did...it was fkin Rio for christ's sake. Luta livre guys were known for carrying guns...ask the guys up your lineages for some stories. BJJ dominated in controlled fights, effectively social status posturing by males, the same as walruses and polar bears and bighorn sheep arbitrate their differences.

As far as "dependency" on the weapon from your earlier post...a professional fighter (aka soldier) has a very different perspective on this. Essentially if you lose this weapon, you are fucked. You may live and you may die, absolutely try to keep fighting, but you fucked up

Seriusly, do you think rafa and miyaos are going to berimbolo or pull 50/50 on the streets? lmafo... people normally have a working brain you know, you have to be pretty damn stupid to even pull guard in a street fight, but im pretty sure those guys will take your back and choke the fuck out of tough boy...

No body trains to fight in a gang fight, best choice is to have bob sapp besides you, but that doesnt change the fact that I can still kick most guys asses that are my size or even bigger, I know how to choke people out, I know what it feels to have someone on top of me thrwoing pucnhes, my question? do you? pretty sure you do not... Bjj is always marketed as the best 1 vs 1 figthing style, thats it, much better than any MT striking base art, that is a fact, that has been proved to death (with bjj and other grappling styles)

About rickson, a current top mma fighter under current rules will probably beat rickson, because you know, that journey man is training bjj, wich back in the rickson days, they were not, not to mention rules, that guy and royce fought some savages (some with skills, some with not so much)...

about guns, yeah everyone seems to be so macho man, "ohhh I have a gun, in sd situations, I will pull out my 9mm and solve the problem", what a bunch of crap, will you kill someone because someone is having an argument with you or even a fist fight with you? you will go to jail for 30 years just because someone punch you in the face? woulndt it be much smarter to punch him back or choke him out? or even to run from the fight? a punch for 30 years? not a good deal... Most guys (that are decent people) wont dare to kill someone, too much on the line... But yeah macho man, I guess you will.
 
I have to take issue with this as I did Aikido to blue belt, across a couple of different ryus. I would not say that anyone there ever really advertised it as practical martial art, certainly not something that would be functional for at least a decade. Aikido is very upfront that this shit will not work for you for a long time.

As far as working against the same type of sloppy tackles as the other TMAs demonstrate, I suppose after a lot of practice, it works as well as they do. In fact, I knew bouncers who used Aikido techniques to control passably compliant drunks, and a dude I used to train with put down a would-be purse snatcher with a kokyu nage, then pinned him for the cops. Aikido works. How "well" it works, especially against purpose technique, that's another story, but there are lots of examples where the dumbest crap works in the "real world."

However, ragging on Aikido as ineffective when you have Miyaos and Rafa using the whole berimbolo game, cmon. People STILL sell BJJ as you will win fights, you will dominate in the street, you will be a badass, and all that BS. Look at the people in F12, minds are getting blown out of heads when Roger or Chael say most of what they trained is not useful for MMA. Lots of people want to make bjj "more relevant" for mma, talking about banning this or that technique or position. It's absurd. We have MMA if you want to do MMA. BJJ was never GOOD MMA in the first place! That is the error. It was just better than the other forms of it 20 years ago. A journeyman MMA fighter of today would KTFO Rickson in 30 seconds with as shitty as his posture, punching, and overall standup work was.

BJJ *NEVER* dominated in the street. Numbers and guns did...it was fkin Rio for christ's sake. Luta livre guys were known for carrying guns...ask the guys up your lineages for some stories. BJJ dominated in controlled fights, effectively social status posturing by males, the same as walruses and polar bears and bighorn sheep arbitrate their differences.

As far as "dependency" on the weapon from your earlier post...a professional fighter (aka soldier) has a very different perspective on this. Essentially if you lose this weapon, you are fucked. You may live and you may die, absolutely try to keep fighting, but you fucked up

Aikido does advertise itself as a slow path to competency. But even calling it a slow path still advertises that if you spend decades practicing against compliant partners, you will be able to trust those skills against resisting opponents. That is just not true. The whole point of aliveness in martial arts is that what Aikido advertises is not true, no matter how long you spend doing it. Training in a flawed way won't make you better no matter how long you train.

Bringing up berimbolo is not relevant because it's not about the techniques -- it's about training with aliveness. Even competition BJJ guys will do far better because even if though a lot of it is not directly technically relevant, they are learning to how handle a determined opponent who is coming at them 100%. It's the same how a Boxer can do well in a real situation even though a BJJ guy could probably just do the Royce thing on him in an MMA match. Training with aliveness is the key to real preparation.

Not sure what you are getting at about weapons. Of course it is better to have the weapon than not. But even the military puts a solid focus on empty hand training with BJJ and MMA. It doesn't even really seem to be a practical application thing as much as a "warrior spirit" thing. It builds the confidence needed to use any variety of weapons (or no weapons) as needed.

Imagine that you were concerned about self-defense so you carried a pistol. But you had no training on how to defend yourself empty handed. Then someone starts threatening you physically and shoving you into a corner.

If all you have is the gun, you will be fearful since you know your gun is lethal force and the situation doesn't warrant it yet. If you use your gun now, you will probably go to prison for manslaughter. But you are afraid that if you let things continue to escalate, when the situation is bad enough that you are justified in using lethal force, it may be too late.

If you have the empty hand knowledge too, you can take control of the situation in a non-lethal way first. You can stop yourself from getting into a shoot/no shoot situation before it even starts. If things go terribly wrong, you always have the gun as a backup if needed.

The gun is a very effective self-defense tool, but one of extremely limited scope. It is always lethal force and thus only useful in the worst possible situations. The knife is even worse; the same lethal force as a gun but without the benefit of range.

The answer to self-defense is not "get a gun". That is only a part of the answer. A gun without the ability to protect yourself with non-lethal methods is not a good solution. There is a continuum of force. The best way to learn the non-lethal methods is to train alive martial arts with resistance.

I'm surprised and kind of saddened that live resistance martial arts training is such a hard sell here. Martial arts that don't train that way are hollow and fake.
 
about guns, yeah everyone seems to be so macho man, "ohhh I have a gun, in sd situations, I will pull out my 9mm and solve the problem", what a bunch of crap, will you kill someone because someone is having an argument with you or even a fist fight with you? you will go to jail for 30 years just because someone punch you in the face? woulndt it be much smarter to punch him back or choke him out? or even to run from the fight? a punch for 30 years? not a good deal... Most guys (that are decent people) wont dare to kill someone, too much on the line... But yeah macho man, I guess you will.

People who only have lethal weapons training to protect them tend to brandish. That is very dangerous and easily backfires.

Due to fear from being exposed in the dangerous but less than lethal force part of the continuum, these people tend to draw their weapons as a threat deterrent. They will pull their gun out for intimidation, point a knife at the guy, etc. But they don't really intend to use it.

The problem is that brandishing escalates the situation needlessly. It gives the other guy a reason to kill you now. If you end up killing the other guy, you can easily be on the hook for escalating to lethal force when it wasn't necessary.

It's also far easier to be disarmed when you are brandishing.

If you have non-lethal options (like unarmed training), you don't need to brandish. You can protect yourself in the non-lethal part of the continuum without fear. If things get so bad that lethal force is needed, you can then draw your weapon and use it immediately.
 
This is a reasonable response, but I think it is missing the most important point. Let me see if I can clarify some:



Things like Capoeira and Tai Chi never seem to get the same amount of hate. The reason is that those arts are much more upfront about what they are about. Capoeira is just as frequently described by its teachers as a dance as a martial art; almost no teachers will describe Aikido as a dance to a prospective student. When people hop in to a slow motion Tai Chi class in the park, they think of it like another form of Yoga, and that thought is encouraged by the instructors. Aikido is almost invariably sold as a practical martial art on some level, even if the practicality is of secondary concern.

The biggest problem with Aikido is that it deliberately treads in a gray area. Ideally, it was probably intended to be removed from real fighting enough to develop people spiritually, but still retain some practical application when necessary. In practice, it does exactly the opposite. It's far enough removed from real fighting to give its practitioners a false sense of ability that fails them dramatically when they need it most.

I know that if you or I were to practice Aikido, we would not fall into that trap. I'll get into why that is, and why we can't assume that most Aikido students are the same as us later on.



That stat is taken out of context here. While I do find it generally true for MMA (if I were going to take an MMA fight, the last thing I'd be training given my background is more BJJ), it's true for everything else too. The vast majority of Judo is useless for MMA. So is Muay Thai. Even Wrestling and Boxing are majority useless. There was something on here about Chael Sonnen saying that most of his Wrestling was useless for MMA. And, to take it a bit further, the majority of competitive MMA is useless for real situations because they are just so different. Getting mount on a guy and pounding his head into the concrete is not always going to be the best strategy unless you like jail time.

The point is that almost nothing you train competitively will have a majority of the techniques transfer over to real situations. Yet, for any of those arts listed above, I would say the practitioner would have a decent chance in a real situation.

How can that be?



The difference is the training mentality. It is far, far more important than the techniques.

In Judo or BJJ, the student is taught how to handle himself under the extreme pressure of fully resisting opponents in competition. Everyone who has competed knows that adrenaline dump and butterflies feeling. That is an extremely good simulation of the stress of a real encounter.

Regardless of the techniques being used, the most important skill is staying cool under pressure. When you get punched in the face, do you stay calm and use your training, or do you panic and get confused? When the opponent tackles you, how do you react? Those are the truly important questions. These have also been proven in experiments to be of far greater importance in a real situation than technical training. No matter how technically trained someone may be, if he is not trained to react smoothly under pressure, it will all fall apart.



As I mentioned above, if you or I were to train Aikido, it would probably be a neutral to slightly positive effect for us. We'd at least get something out of it, and if not no harm done. I don't see how I could possibly put up with training something as inefficiently as done in Aikido, but I won't say that I learned absolutely nothing from my handful of experiences.

The difference between us and students who do only Aikido is that we have the proper context to evaluate real training. We know what it is like to perform under pressure, and thus we know what is needed to train for real. We can take parts of Aikido and practice incorporating them against true resistance, which eventually would lead to us being able to use them in a real scenario. It is because of our knowledge from Judo and BJJ that we can make Aikido somewhat useful.

The huge, huge problem with Aikido is that the art is deliberately set up to prevent that discovery by its students. Real resistance is highly discouraged so that those students never learn what we already know. It's exactly the opposite of Judo and BJJ which teach the truth about martial arts via true resistance right off the bat.

Aikido intentionally strings its students along for years (decades?) without letting them discover this. That is just wrong. It deludes people. It would not delude us because we already know, but for the people who don't have the benefit of our background, it is terrible.

As far as taking martial arts seriously, I very much do. I am a martial arts zealot. I want to spread the truth of real martial arts to people. I have seen many students deluded for years. It's not just an Aikido thing; I've seen it in BJJ and other arts too. It makes me mad every time I see it. It is horrible to exploit people that way.

I don't take my own self too seriously, but I take the martial arts (much greater than myself) very seriously. What I see in that video is a whole school of people who just got owned by a grappler who isn't even good -- from his website, he appears to be a fraud. That is serious to me.


.

Honestly this seems like you have some kind of pathology now against aikido. I respect you alot and you have alot of knowledge but something happened to make you go heel versus aikido compared to when you use to be one of the only ones on here who defend it. I know you replied that your stance has hardened on martial arts practicality over the years but if your views have changed once, they may change again, no?

Alot of the techniques are practical. In the Marcelo Garcia thread, when someone asked what weird submission he was using, you correctly pointed out that it was a wakigatame but then attributed it to judo. Which at the time I found a little strange since you are learned enough to know that it is a staple weapon of aikido and aikijiujitsu more so than judo because it's an option that flows off an aikido/aikijiujistu irimi (entry).

And you keep generalizing that there is no training with resisting opponents which is incorrect. Yoshinkan Aikido, Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido, Yoseikan Aikido do randori with live resisting opponents as does Chrsitian Tissier dojo (head of Aikikai Aikido in Europe).

You keep demeaning Aikido and saying these guys are hucksters & frauds. And that's unfair and disrespectful. Like I said the head of the IBJJF broadcasting crew and Rolled Up is a huge Aikido proponent and blackbelt practitioner. And he's also done an awful lot for the BJJ community helping to bring you the Mundials and Rolled up interviews. Are you saying Jake intentionally misleads his students, even though he is a BJJ Brown Belt and Aikido blackbelt who has probably been doing martial arts longer than you? I find that offensive, Jake's a great guy.

Jake McKee Aiki Push Hands:
Aiki Push Hands by Jake McKee - YouTube

Jake's Randori: (granted this is more of a soft randori):
Aikido Randori @ OCBC Aikido Club - YouTube

Jake's Aikido blog:
Twisting Wrists
 
Seriusly, do you think rafa and miyaos are going to berimbolo or pull 50/50 on the streets? lmafo... people normally have a working brain you know, you have to be pretty damn stupid to even pull guard in a street fight, but im pretty sure those guys will take your back and choke the fuck out of tough boy...

No body trains to fight in a gang fight, best choice is to have bob sapp besides you, but that doesnt change the fact that I can still kick most guys asses that are my size or even bigger, I know how to choke people out, I know what it feels to have someone on top of me thrwoing pucnhes, my question? do you? pretty sure you do not... Bjj is always marketed as the best 1 vs 1 figthing style, thats it, much better than any MT striking base art, that is a fact, that has been proved to death (with bjj and other grappling styles)

About rickson, a current top mma fighter under current rules will probably beat rickson, because you know, that journey man is training bjj, wich back in the rickson days, they were not, not to mention rules, that guy and royce fought some savages (some with skills, some with not so much)...

about guns, yeah everyone seems to be so macho man, "ohhh I have a gun, in sd situations, I will pull out my 9mm and solve the problem", what a bunch of crap, will you kill someone because someone is having an argument with you or even a fist fight with you? you will go to jail for 30 years just because someone punch you in the face? woulndt it be much smarter to punch him back or choke him out? or even to run from the fight? a punch for 30 years? not a good deal... Most guys (that are decent people) wont dare to kill someone, too much on the line... But yeah macho man, I guess you will.

GD, you are dumb...sigh.

If they AREN'T going to pull 50/50 on the street, why are they training it? Isn't it a MARTIAL ART?

I don't know what the rest of the nonsense you were babbling was supposed to add up to. Take a minute, compose your thoughts, and try again.
 
People who only have lethal weapons training to protect them tend to brandish. That is very dangerous and easily backfires.

Most of this is absolute rubbish, because lethal weapon training teaches you NOT to brandish.

People who have a gun to wave around wave guns around. Just as serious MMA pros don't walk around wearing fuckin tapout shirts, people who have guns for the purpose of shooting people don't advertise it.

That said, I have no clue where you concocted the rest of that stuff. In most cases, merely producing a firearm is sufficient to end a conflict. The notion of "escalation" is laughable bullshit and doesn't exist. It's a libtard fiction. In the vast majority of gun-use incidents, the firearm isn't discharged.

Most people get robbed without a shot being fired. Most burglars scamper at the sound of a slide being racked. Most people put their fkin hands up and comply when the police draw their sidearms. Occasionally, the opposite happens, sure, but it's comparatively rare. Usually people scatter at the sight of a firearm or the sound of a gunshot in close proximity.
 
Honestly this seems like you have some kind of pathology now against aikido. I respect you alot and you have alot of knowledge but something happened to make you go heel versus aikido compared to when you use to be one of the only ones on here who defend it. I know you replied that your stance has hardened on martial arts practicality over the years but if your views have changed once, they may change again, no?

Yes, my views can and are almost guaranteed to evolve and change further. But at any one time, I can only say what I believe then.

Alot of the techniques are practical. In the Marcelo Garcia thread, when someone asked what weird submission he was using, you correctly pointed out that it was a wakigatame but then attributed it to judo. Which at the time I found a little strange since you are learned enough to know that it is a staple weapon of aikido and aikijiujitsu more so than judo because it's an option that flows off an aikido/aikijiujistu irimi (entry).

That technique is done in Jiu Jitsu and all of its children arts. I just learned it mostly in Judo, but it's in Aikido too. Again, the difference is that in Aikido it is trained with compliant partners.

And you keep generalizing that there is no training with resisting opponents which is incorrect. Yoshinkan Aikido, Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido, Yoseikan Aikido do randori with live resisting opponents as does Chrsitian Tissier dojo (head of Aikikai Aikido in Europe).

Those variants are more like Aikijujutsu or Judo which is why they split from the main line. If the techniques are trained with live resistance it is fine, but for the majority of Aikido they are not. You posted videos of this live resistance training. I watched them. They are not real resistance. It should tell you something about the vast majority of the art when you are specifically looking for videos of real resistance Aikido training (from a guy who also does BJJ) and you still can't find them.

You keep demeaning Aikido and saying these guys are hucksters & frauds. And that's unfair and disrespectful. Like I said the head of the IBJJF broadcasting crew and Rolled Up is a huge Aikido proponent and blackbelt practitioner. And he's also done an awful lot for the BJJ community helping to bring you the Mundials and Rolled up interviews. Are you saying Jake intentionally misleads his students, even though he is a BJJ Brown Belt and Aikido blackbelt who has probably been doing martial arts longer than you? I find that offensive, Jake's a great guy.

Jake McKee Aiki Push Hands:
Aiki Push Hands by Jake McKee - YouTube

Jake's Randori: (granted this is more of a soft randori):
Aikido Randori @ OCBC Aikido Club - YouTube

Jake's Aikido blog:
Twisting Wrists*|*All aikido, all the time
 
Alot of the techniques are practical. In the Marcelo Garcia thread, when someone asked what weird submission he was using, you correctly pointed out that it was a wakigatame but then attributed it to judo. Which at the time I found a little strange since you are learned enough to know that it is a staple weapon of aikido and aikijiujitsu more so than judo because it's an option that flows off an aikido/aikijiujistu irimi (entry).

yeah, about that submission, it was jegue-plata, not any of those others. Check out Augusto Ferrari, he demonstrates 3 of the variations and was known for this sub. Wakigatame is an elbow lock, MG was using jegueplata, a shoulder lock.
 
Most of this is absolute rubbish, because lethal weapon training teaches you NOT to brandish.

People who have a gun to wave around wave guns around. Just as serious MMA pros don't walk around wearing fuckin tapout shirts, people who have guns for the purpose of shooting people don't advertise it.

That said, I have no clue where you concocted the rest of that stuff. In most cases, merely producing a firearm is sufficient to end a conflict. The notion of "escalation" is laughable bullshit and doesn't exist. It's a libtard fiction. In the vast majority of gun-use incidents, the firearm isn't discharged.

Most people get robbed without a shot being fired. Most burglars scamper at the sound of a slide being racked. Most people put their fkin hands up and comply when the police draw their sidearms. Occasionally, the opposite happens, sure, but it's comparatively rare. Usually people scatter at the sight of a firearm or the sound of a gunshot in close proximity.

If you don't think drawing a firearm in a non-lethal force situation will have bad ramifications for you, then I have nothing more to say.
 
If you don't think drawing a firearm in a non-lethal force situation will have bad ramifications for you, then I have nothing more to say.

Try again except without a strawman. If you need help understanding what that is, use google.
 
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