aikido vs sub-wrestling

[Armory_Wrestler**]

aikido is not a fighting technique....how many time do we have to go over this? but yes props to the instructor nutting up, as oppsed to every other mcdojo instructors."

 

[Armory_Wrestler**]

I did aikido for a few years. The techniques are very good, and I have used it off the mat for self defence. As much as I love it, though, I saw its limitations.

All techniques are responses to stylised attacks, 99% of these being arms-length, standing. You start by learning what to do when someone grabs your wrist, then move on to strikes (mostly diagonal, mirroring sword strikes).

It doesn't pretend to be a form of fighting. There is no actual sparring, just refining technique with a co-operative partner.

Things may have been a little different in that video if the wrestler had grabbed the aikidoka rather than the other way around. In aikido it is all about reacting to an attack, not initiating one.

I left it behind because I thought it could be more useful if it was taught in a more realistic context, but no-one seems to do that. I started wrestling and BJJ because of the value of competitive fighting.

No style is perfect, BJJ has limitations too; you can get KO'd before you get the chance to take it to the ground. Everything has its value, just in different ways.

hmmmm

 

[Balto]

I'm not even really sure what is being argued about Aikido.

All I said was that it was super lame. Everything further said about Aikido I already knew. Just because it's "lame on purpose" or whatever doesn't make my statement any less true. It kind of makes it even more true.

 

[Steeltwo]

Looks suspiciously like BJJ, and I've never heard of Turkish Submission Wrestling before.

How so, he didn't pull guard. :-D

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

That's why the BJJ guys who do MMA spend plenty of time with Wrestling and Boxing and Muay Thai.
.

Yes but that would be true of anyone. Even an aikidoka who decided to take up MMA would spend plenty of time on wrestling, judo, bjj or boxing.

There are plenty of hobbyist BJJ guys who come 4 times a week for BJJ but won't step into the wrestling class even though it is offered on site and encouraged.

 

[Balto]

Yes but that would be true of anyone. Even an aikidoka who decided to take up MMA would spend plenty of time on wrestling, judo, bjj or boxing.

Aikidoka won't do MMA because it's against the entire philosophy of their art. It's completely different training.

Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Boxing all train in fundamentally the same reality based way. It's just a matter of specialty. But the training attitude is the same, which is why all of those arts actually work.

There are plenty of hobbyist BJJ guys who come 4 times a week for BJJ but won't step into the wrestling class even though it is offered on site and encouraged.

Those guys are lame as hell too. I'm not excusing anyone's lameness here just because he happens to be from BJJ. I'm just pointing out that there is a pretty sizable contingent of practical martial artists in BJJ that just does not exist in Aikido. In fact, we would be shunned in Aikido for our views on realistic training.

 

[JerkWeed]

well at least the aikido folks had a good attitude

They were a good humoured bunch weren't they?

 

[VillArreal**]

The difference between BJJ and Aikido is that when people beat us in BJJ, we accept it and learn from our mistakes.

Vast generalizations based on nothing, I like your style.

 

[Balto]

Vast generalizations based on nothing, I like your style.

Of course they are vast. We are talking about entire martial arts here.

The generalizations are exactly what you will find when you walk into most Aikido schools and most BJJ schools.

If an Aikido school trained with our mentality, that would be okay. But those variants are more like Aikijujutsu or Judo than modern mainline Aikikai.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

Of course they are vast. We are talking about entire martial arts here.

The generalizations are exactly what you will find when you walk into most Aikido schools and most BJJ schools.

If an Aikido school trained with our mentality, that would be okay. But those variants are more like Aikijujutsu or Judo than modern mainline Aikikai.

Aikikai is just one group of Aikido though. Sort of the equivalent of say Gracie Barra.

Yoshinkan Aikido and it's offshoots train more hard core and one could equate to Carlson Gracie's and it's descendent branches. And are taught to the Tokyo police force. And that is still Aikido.

So you could generalize about Aikiai but you didn't. You just generalized about Aikido. Even then if you look at the Christian Tissier's Aikido school in France (Tissier is the head guy in France/Europe), his school has live sparring, self defense, cross training, etc and he's Aikikai.

 

[Patrick F Carey]

In fact, we would be shunned in Aikido for our views on realistic training.

Quoted for fucking truth.

I tried Aikido, but I always had 'weird' reactions to the techniques they tried to drill.

They had me grab a same side wrist, and then they did some weird step push on my arm that is supposed to make me fall to the ground. I just let go of the wrist. They had to keep on telling me how no one lets go of the wrist in a real situation.

I wasn't resisting, and then some nerdy kid is telling me to 'not be so tense' or i'll get hurt..

Aikido is just a huge waste of time

 

[Goat Meal]

For a Turkish wrestler, his shot looked terrible.

 

[Balto]

Aikikai is just one group of Aikido though. Sort of the equivalent of say Gracie Barra.

Yoshinkan Aikido and it's offshoots train more hard core and one could equate to Carlson Gracie's and it's descendent branches. And are taught to the Tokyo police force. And that is still Aikido.

So you could generalize about Aikiai but you didn't. You just generalized about Aikido. Even then if you look at the Christian Tissier's Aikido school in France (Tissier is the head guy in France/Europe), his school has live sparring, self defense, cross training, etc and he's Aikikai.

The vast majority of Aikido is Aikikai -- something like 80% of the dojos. And while some of that remaining 20% are a little more realistic, some are even more whacked out like Ki Aikido. It's not like Gracie Barra because Gracie Barra sure as hell isn't 80% of BJJ.

The offshoots you mentioned aren't much different from Aikijujutsu. The one thing they all have in common is they decided to jump ship from the crazy cult leader BS coming down from the leader at some point. The BS is what really makes Aikido distinct from Aikijujutsu.

You guys act like I've never trained with these guys. I have been in the classes. I've trained with Aikido guys and Aikijujutsu guys. Of course I didn't stick around for more Aikido because it's so stupid. I did make friends with the Aikijujutsu teacher, trained with him several times, and had him teach at my club on occasion. The difference is pretty clear. One is full of shit and the other isn't.

People always do this stuff with Aikido to try to apologize for it. They take the minority examples of people actually being good and use those to defend it. Even in the shittiest BJJ schools I've been to, there is usually at least one guy who somehow managed to get a little bit good. It doesn't make the school any less shitty or fake. Real martial arts don't just make a few people good; they make everyone good.

When someone asks if your martial art is effective, and you have to respond with a treatise on how your art actually transcends that question, you fucked up a long time ago bro. The answer should just be "Yes" with an immediate demonstration of it.

 

[rekd]

The vast majority of Aikido is Aikikai -- something like 80% of the dojos. And while some of that remaining 20% are a little more realistic, some are even more whacked out like Ki Aikido. It's not like Gracie Barra because Gracie Barra sure as hell isn't 80% of BJJ.

The offshoots you mentioned aren't much different from Aikijujutsu. The one thing they all have in common is they decided to jump ship from the crazy cult leader BS coming down from the leader at some point. The BS is what really makes Aikido distinct from Aikijujutsu.

You guys act like I've never trained with these guys. I have been in the classes. I've trained with Aikido guys and Aikijujutsu guys. Of course I didn't stick around for more Aikido because it's so stupid. I did make friends with the Aikijujutsu teacher, trained with him several times, and had him teach at my club on occasion. The difference is pretty clear. One is full of shit and the other isn't.

People always do this stuff with Aikido to try to apologize for it. They take the minority examples of people actually being good and use those to defend it. Even in the shittiest BJJ schools I've been to, there is usually at least one guy who somehow managed to get a little bit good. It doesn't make the school any less shitty or fake. Real martial arts don't just make a few people good; they make everyone good.

When someone asks if your martial art is effective, and you have to respond with a treatise on how your art actually transcends that question, you fucked up a long time ago bro. The answer should just be "Yes" with an immediate demonstration of it.

You need to take a xanax, man. Aikido is graceful and fun.

Most of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting as well, but it has merit on its own nonetheless. Everything is not about fighting. You will statistically suffer worse injuries from training to fight than the risk of them in an actual fight. If you worry so much, train with knives or carry firearms. Get out of 1993, man.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

The vast majority of Aikido is Aikikai -- something like 80% of the dojos. And while some of that remaining 20% are a little more realistic, some are even more whacked out like Ki Aikido. It's not like Gracie Barra because Gracie Barra sure as hell isn't 80% of BJJ.

The offshoots you mentioned aren't much different from Aikijujutsu. The one thing they all have in common is they decided to jump ship from the crazy cult leader BS coming down from the leader at some point. The BS is what really makes Aikido distinct from Aikijujutsu.

You guys act like I've never trained with these guys. I have been in the classes. I've trained with Aikido guys and Aikijujutsu guys. Of course I didn't stick around for more Aikido because it's so stupid. I did make friends with the Aikijujutsu teacher, trained with him several times, and had him teach at my club on occasion. The difference is pretty clear. One is full of shit and the other isn't.

People always do this stuff with Aikido to try to apologize for it. They take the minority examples of people actually being good and use those to defend it. Even in the shittiest BJJ schools I've been to, there is usually at least one guy who somehow managed to get a little bit good. It doesn't make the school any less shitty or fake. Real martial arts don't just make a few people good; they make everyone good.

When someone asks if your martial art is effective, and you have to respond with a treatise on how your art actually transcends that question, you fucked up a long time ago bro. The answer should just be "Yes" with an immediate demonstration of it.

You've mentioned your Aikido friend before. And said he was quite good in rolling. And at one point were defending and even praising Aikido.
But now you seem to be rationalizing things by saying he is Aikijiutsu and not Aikdo whereas before you were calling him an Aikido guy. Is he pure Aikijiujitsu or Aikido? Or are you just trying to keep that distinction so that it matches your general outlook on Aikido?

Yeah there seem to be alot of crap clubs that look more like star trek tech nerd conventions in the US. I agree with that. But to extrapolate that to the whole martial art based on that seems incorrect.

I think the main problem is that Aikido was originally only supposed to be learned after establishing a base in another art. (The original prerequisite was that you had to be a judo or shotokan karate blackbelt to learn Aikido). It's basically high level grip fighting and striking but you need a firm grappling or striking base (preferably both).

Even the guy who runs the IBJJF broadcasts and Rolled Up is a huge Aikido guy and Aikido blackbelt with a firm base in BJJ. (BJJ Brownbelt):
Aikido Randori @ OCBC Aikido Club - YouTube

Aiki Push Hands by Jake McKee - YouTube

 

[Zankou]

You need to take a xanax, man. Aikido is graceful and fun.

Most of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting as well, but it has merit on its own nonetheless. Everything is not about fighting. You will statistically suffer worse injuries from training to fight than the risk of them in an actual fight. If you worry so much, train with knives or carry firearms. Get out of 1993, man.

I have no problem with people treating aikido as capoeira -- and both those arts can look beautiful and are probably quite fun if you get good enough -- but it's usually disingenuous. There's always some claim that it has serious combative utility. And it doesn't.

If aikido didn't have fighting and defense pretensions, it would just be regarded as a goofy form of dancing. How do you subtract the awful combative technique and have anything left? What remains is just awful Japanese religious philosophy, the kind currently espoused by hundreds of different cults in modern Japan, without the martial pretensions.

For a martial art/combat sport, it really is about fighting other people. It doesn't have to be "in the streetz," but without a resisting opponent who is hellbent on defeating you, the reality value is gone. Everything that's worthwhile in martial arts comes from real physical struggle against real opponents. Mainstream aikido has none of that, instead substituting goofball philosophy.

 

[deadlizard]

You need to take a xanax, man. Aikido is graceful and fun.

Most of BJJ is irrelevant for fighting as well, but it has merit on its own nonetheless. Everything is not about fighting. You will statistically suffer worse injuries from training to fight than the risk of them in an actual fight. If you worry so much, train with knives or carry firearms. Get out of 1993, man.

Ballet is graceful and fun.

I'd rather train ballet than Aikido because it's more useful at picking up hot chicks.

 

[Speed BR]

Everything positive mentioned about Aikido is leftover from its Jiu Jitsu roots (the Aikijujutsu style really).

Aikido, Judo, and BJJ are changes from old Jiu Jitsu. The difference is that Judo and BJJ made positive changes -- full resistance randori, competition to keep us sharp since we aren't fighting to the death on a regular basis, a focus on evolving technique with scientific principles, etc.

Aikido made negative changes -- compliant partners, absolutely nothing competitive, a bunch of cult leader mystical BS about ki, etc.

Of course I realize that you can do Aikido for decades and incidentally happen to get about as effective in a fight as a fucking two stripe white belt in BJJ. That doesn't make it any less lame. The only variants of Aikido that aren't completely lame are the ones that are more like Aikijujutsu or Judo than the mainline school of Aikido.

Aikido doesn't make spirituality better; it makes martial arts worse.

This. Perfect assessment. Aikido and Ninjutsu = cult-like systems developed to please japanophiles and create an environment where they can feel that they are in feudal Japan. The hard, awful and bitter truth is that people who practise these "martial arts" are not interested in fighting - they are after Asian culture.

I posted this story in another thread, but I think it would be useful here as well.
When I was a teenager, I tried to learn Aikido at 2 different places and in all of them I felt like I was being told how to interpret and throw myself whenever someone approached me. And the most common excuse I was told in order not to resist was "You see, if you do not fall, he is going to break your wrist". And then once I tried resisting... My opponent looked at me mesmerized as if I had done something terrible. My wrist was not broken and I realised it was just taboo... Then I stopped thinking that everyone that wore manskirts was a badass (with the exception of the Scottish, of course ), and started to train seriously contact sports.

 

[deadlizard]

I have no problem with people treating aikido as capoeira, but it's usually disingenuous. There's always some claim that it has serious combative utility. And it doesn't.

If aikido didn't have fighting and defense pretensions, it would just be regarded as a goofy form of dancing. How do you subtract the awful combative technique and have anything left? What remains is just awful Japanese religious philosophy, the kind currently espoused by hundreds of different cults in modern Japan, without the martial pretensions.

And there you've just described a lot of TMA. Most of the TMAs are just a form of dancing to get in shape.

Given 100 years, BJJ will suffer the same fate.

 

[Balto]

Quoted for fucking truth.

I tried Aikido, but I always had 'weird' reactions to the techniques they tried to drill.

They had me grab a same side wrist, and then they did some weird step push on my arm that is supposed to make me fall to the ground. I just let go of the wrist. They had to keep on telling me how no one lets go of the wrist in a real situation.

I wasn't resisting, and then some nerdy kid is telling me to 'not be so tense' or i'll get hurt..

Aikido is just a huge waste of time

I did this Aikido class once because they were scheduled to have the mat space we were using for BJJ. It looked really lame, but I figured I should give it a try so they could prove it to me. After all, some people think BJJ looks lame, and I usually just ask for them to try so I can prove it to them.

We did some ukemi and tai sabaki which wasn't too bad.

Then we sat seiza and watched the instructor demonstrate a move. Then we partnered up and were told to do it four times each and switch.

The move was an ikkyo control off a wrist grab. I grabbed my partner's wrist. He said that I was grabbing it wrong. I apologized and grabbed with my other hand. He said no go back to the first way. I grabbed it again. He said it was still wrong.

I asked him how I should grab him. He said naturally. I said okay and grabbed him again. He said it was still wrong.

He called the instructor over, and she showed me how to grab naturally. Apparently grabbing naturally involves stiff arming the guy's wrist into his chest as hard as you can off balance so he can turn slightly while you fling yourself into the armbar. I guess I misunderstood naturally.

I grabbed the demonstrated way. My partner effortlessly put me into the ikkyo. He felt grand.

Then it was my turn. Except my partner didn't grab me the natural way. He grabbed me the same way I had initially grabbed him.

Instead of calling the instructor over to tattle on him, I just adjusted my technique a little to make it work anyway. I had to jerk him a little bit off balance first -- just like you would do in Jiu Jitsu or Judo. My ikkyo worked as well.

The instructor ran over and started yelling at me. She said that I should never use such force, and I could seriously injure someone. I used way more force all the time in BJJ, and somehow my opponents didn't die, but that seemed lost on her. I promised that I would never use such force again. My partner was staring at me with a frown the whole time as if I'd disrupted the entire fabric of the universe.

I don't really remember the rest. I just kind of zoned out and hoped it would end. It eventually did, and I got the fuck out of there. What a crock of shit.

Pretty much every other guy I meet in real life who has tried Aikido describes the same type of stuff. Ironically, pretty much every guy I meet on here swears it isn't true. Somewhere these numbers aren't lining up.

As for me, I'll take my real life experiences.