Economy A little context on Canada and "free trade"

[avenue94]

A gallon is almost 4L so you just proved his point.

A gallon is 4 L. How is $2.50 for 4 L "fairly similar" to $5 for 2 L?

Here's what I find when I google "Unlimited Data Plans" for the US.

You're right, I did the conversion wrong in my head. At any point, if Canada wants to let US dairy into the market, knock yourselves out. Just keep in mind the US subsidizes our dairy farmers to an insane degree, so whether or not those subsidies will carry into Canada isn't clear.

As for unlimited plans, almost all the Ines from the Big 3 cost more or the same as the price you quotes for 80 gigs (which is effectively unlimited). Next to no one uses the smaller carriers like Mint. So again, if you want American carriers in your market, sure. Just keep in mind in the US that carriers are known as among the most rapacious companies consumers regularly deal with, with very limited competition.

 

[Crazy Source]

Luckily your an absolute nobody fucking loser . So you'll just have to take whatever crumbs come to you.

Happy Easter, friend. May love fill your heart today.

 

[Loiosh]

As a Canadian, it's honestly been a little embarrassing watching so many of my fellow Canadians coming down with the vapours about Trump's tariffs. Is the guy unhinged and chaos personified? Yup. Is Canada, of all nations, in any position to lecture anyone on free trade? Gawd no. We're one of the worst, most petty, protectionist sorts of nation in the developed world... to the expense of our citizens.

Our telecoms are protected from competition so that we are left paying double and triple what people in other countries pay.

Our prices on dairy products are fixed at artificially high prices and American's shut out of the market so that households are stuck paying double what they ought for milk and dairy dependent businesses from pizza joints to ice cream stands to cafes have a near impossible task in attempting to squeeze out a profit margin.

Canadians are entirely left at the mercy of a very few large (often predatory) banks.

We are forced to watch, listen to, and pay for "Canadian Content" that many people don't want rather than international content that many people do want.

Our government allows big lumber to cut on crown land for free, making small woodlot ownership and management a completely futile endeavor.

And, perhaps worst of all, our provinces are in continued and constant trade wars, placing tariffs on one another. You read that right. Not between countries, but between provinces in the same country.

And now, all of that BS is being brought to the fore due to Trump's BS, and we're supposed to be all "ra ra, Canada!" about it. Like any of this would have ever changed if Trump's acute bout of nonsense hadn't highlighted our own longstanding chronic nonsense. Just terrible, terrible people all around. Any Canadian being sucked into this WWE style rage bait should be embarrassed. These guys have been selling us out for decades, and now they want a pat on the back for "taking on Trump," while they try to get us to ignore the fact that they've been force feeding us the exact same garbage that Trump has now placed on the menu.

Video evidence of the above:

Canadian here, and all I have to say is you're not wrong.

The Trump issues are clearly an order of magnitude worse, but using them to pretend we don't have serious problems all on our own is laughable.

 

[Squarechoke]

It's definitely good to acknowledge the problems in one's own country and not just give it a pass because something is worse, as it's quite stupid to only be able to look at things from one perspective.

That being said, pretty much everyone are in a position to criticize Trump because his stupid ideas go against even basic trade knowledge, like thinking that a trade deficit is automatically bad. We're seeing what a bad combination ignorance and power is. So just as you shouldn't give a pass to a problem just because some are worse you also shouldn't think you can't criticize something really bad because you have problems of a lesser kind yourself.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

As a Canadian, it's honestly been a little embarrassing watching so many of my fellow Canadians coming down with the vapours about Trump's tariffs. Is the guy unhinged and chaos personified? Yup. Is Canada, of all nations, in any position to lecture anyone on free trade? Gawd no. We're one of the worst, most petty, protectionist sorts of nation in the developed world... to the expense of our citizens.

Good luck. I've been trying to explain this for the past four months.

All they know is what the TV told them to think.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

you are conflating two topics that have no relevance to each other

Either go live in America sucking trumps dick of fuck off

Concession accepted and laughed at

 

[Renard]

"Look at all the ways the Canadian gov. screws its' own citizens... that means we can't complain if the US screws us too!"

Take the telecom monopoly BS. People have been complaining about that forever. It never gets fixed. Government doesn't care, consumer protection groups have no fangs and don't care. What would you have us do more, organize country-wide protests over something nobody is that passionate about, storm some government building and blow ourselves up along with everyone in it? Even that wouldn't work. They don't give a fuck, like at all. Zero fucks.

Like all countries Canada is a playground for the elites. There are certain things that will never get fixed. Let go of the expectation they will because they won't.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

You're basically saying "we suck, and we deserve punishment"

No. He's saying protectionist economic policies between Canada and the US are a two-way street and there's nothing new about our two countries placing tarriffs on each other's goods.

All that's changed with Trump is that he comes from a business background so he understands he has all the leverage in this relationship.

 

[jeremyemilio]

You're right, I did the conversion wrong in my head. At any point, if Canada wants to let US dairy into the market, knock yourselves out. Just keep in mind the US subsidizes our dairy farmers to an insane degree, so whether or not those subsidies will carry into Canada isn't clear.

As for unlimited plans, almost all the Ines from the Big 3 cost more or the same as the price you quotes for 80 gigs (which is effectively unlimited). Next to no one uses the smaller carriers like Mint. So again, if you want American carriers in your market, sure. Just keep in mind in the US that carriers are known as among the most rapacious companies consumers regularly deal with, with very limited competition.

The point is simply that more competition means lower prices for consumers, and our government protects a few big players to prevent that from happening.

(The milk thing is worse. Our government runs a literal collusion enterprise intentionally designed to keep dairy prices high.)

 

[HereticBD]

A gallon is almost 4L so you just proved his point.

Oof! Right in the metric system.

 

[avenue94]

The point is simply that more competition means lower prices for consumers, and our government protects a few big players to prevent that from happening.

In theory yes, but it gets more complicated across borders. As I mentioned, the US phone carrier market is even more concentrated than Canada's. Are you denying that?

(The milk thing is worse. Our government runs a literal collusion enterprise intentionally designed to keep dairy prices high.)

The US does this as well, which leads me to think that you aren't super familiar with how the US agricultural industry works. We spend more on dairy subsidies than most of the Canada's agricultural sectors. Like I said, no skin off my nose if American farmers sell into Canada, but you are under this illusion that Canada's subsidies are unique and American farmers compete on a level playing field.

 

[jeremyemilio]

It's definitely good to acknowledge the problems in one's own country and not just give it a pass because something is worse, as it's quite stupid to only be able to look at things from one perspective.

That being said, pretty much everyone are in a position to criticize Trump because his stupid ideas go against even basic trade knowledge, like thinking that a trade deficit is automatically bad. We're seeing what a bad combination ignorance and power is. So just as you shouldn't give a pass to a problem just because some are worse you also shouldn't think you can't criticize something really bad because you have problems of a lesser kind yourself.

I'm sincerely not saying we don't have reason or right to criticize or have a grievance against Trump.

But we have a Federal election going on right now, and election day is coming up in two weeks. Before the Trump tariffs this election was shaping up to be one of the first in a while that was all about who could deliver a better quality of life for Canadians, and it was looking as though all of our parties and leaders were finally going to have their feet held to the fire and be forced to present voters with real policy solutions.

Then Trump started Trumping and here we are having a federal election based entirely on who is going to give more pushback to Trump, and in the midst of all that we all lose out on an opportunity to have our politicians address our problems and, where appropriate, commit to changing course on ineffectual governance. As I've said, taking a five week election season (that's all we have) and filling it up to the brim with angry rhetoric aimed at the leader of a whole other country is a much too easy and much too cynical bit of misdirection.

We deserve better. But to get better, we really need to stop falling for this sort of garbage politics.

 

[jeremyemilio]

"Look at all the ways the Canadian gov. screws its' own citizens... that means we can't complain if the US screws us too!"

Take the telecom monopoly BS. People have been complaining about that forever. It never gets fixed. Government doesn't care, consumer protection groups have no fangs and don't care. What would you have us do more, organize country-wide protests over something nobody is that passionate about, storm some government building and blow ourselves up along with everyone in it? Even that wouldn't work. They don't give a fuck, like at all. Zero fucks.

Like all countries Canada is a playground for the elites. There are certain things that will never get fixed. Let go of the expectation they will because they won't.

As I've said, I don't mind the complaints. It's the misdirection in the midst of a federal election that I don't like. You're right about nothing ever getting done about these things because nobody cares. That's the point. Working ourselves into a frenzy about Trump does nothing. Redirecting that energy back into the longstanding issues at home, on the other hand, would result in real world payoffs for us all.

 

[jeremyemilio]

In theory yes, but it gets more complicated across borders. As I mentioned, the US phone carrier market is even more concentrated than Canada's. Are you denying that?

The US does this as well, which leads me to think that you aren't super familiar with how the US agricultural industry works. We spend more on dairy subsidies than most of the Canada's agricultural sectors. Like I said, no skin off my nose if American farmers sell into Canada, but you are under this illusion that Canada's subsidies are unique and American farmers compete on a level playing field.

The concentration is about the same. You have Verizon, T-Mobil, and AT&T. We have Bell, Rogers, and Telus. It doesn't change the fact that the topic has been well researched and the findings are that in areas where a fourth player can get a foothold, prices are lower. And yet our regulations are set up to prevent that from happening.

As for dairy, you really don't understand what our supply management system does. It literally sets price minimums on milk. The "subsidies" in Canada are paid directly by consumers who pay prices that are double what they ought to be. Milk is a staple in many families, making this a system that disproportionately targets the lower and working class families that can least afford it.

 

[avenue94]

The concentration is about the same. You have Verizon, T-Mobil, and AT&T. We have Bell, Rogers, and Telus. It doesn't change the fact that the topic has been well researched and the findings are that in areas where a fourth player can get a foothold, prices are lower. And yet our regulations are set up to prevent that from happening.

How much share does each trio have in their respective geos by your estimation?

And sure, a 4th player getting involved would help on paper help, but American telco companies aren't usually in the business of just competing, they seek to dominate (and usually do). An equally likely outcome would be that one of ours partners or eventually swallows a Canadian operator or two. Again, prices are lower or comparable in Canada, so I'm curious why you think an American carrier would be interested in taking smaller margins in a small market rather than trying to raise prices.

As for dairy, you really don't understand what our supply management system does. It literally sets price minimums on milk. The "subsidies" in Canada are paid directly by consumers who pay prices that are double what they ought to be. Milk is a staple in many families, making this a system that disproportionately targets the lower and working class families that can least afford it.

In the US, the price is guaranteed at wholesale, not retail in nearly every state. They come from taxpayer money via Farm Bills. Where the subsidy enters here isn't really important, what is is how much it is and the goal.

Why do you think subsidizing wholesale vs retail prices is different?

Note I am on the same page as far as agricultural tariffs, I'm just noting that you are complaining about a cancerous problem while advocating for an even worst offender to save consumers.

 

[tastaylvr]

Concession accepted and laughed at

What are you talking about? Maga is bad enough but you guys are Canadian maga supporters which make zero sense lol

Now you’re in a weird situation where trump is trying to fuck over Canada for no reason and make threats to invade and then you and your retarded crew make threads defending him lol

I’ll summarise the stupidity of this thread

-trump tries to destroy their biggest ally
-Canadian maga supporter “what about them phone bills though”

Jfc lol you mfkers need a reality check

 

[jeremyemilio]

How much share does each trio have in their respective geos by your estimation?

And sure, a 4th player getting involved would help on paper help, but American telco companies aren't usually in the business of just competing, they seek to dominate (and usually do). An equally likely outcome would be that one of ours partners or eventually swallows a Canadian operator or two. Again, prices are lower or comparable in Canada, so I'm curious why you think an American carrier would be interested in taking smaller margins in a small market rather than trying to raise prices.

In the US, the price is guaranteed at wholesale, not retail in nearly every state. They come from taxpayer money via Farm Bills. Where the subsidy enters here isn't really important, what is is how much it is and the goal.

Why do you think subsidizing wholesale vs retail prices is different?

Note I am on the same page as far as agricultural tariffs, I'm just noting that you are complaining about a cancerous problem while advocating for an even worst offender to save consumers.

We can go back and forth on the Telecoms all day. Canadians pay some of the highest prices in the world for some of the worst services in the world. America, it seems based on your input an my follow-up research, is right there with us. This is a fairly recent development (five years ago, when Americans already had unlimited data plans, Canadians were paying similar prices for 6-8 GB). But all of that is a moot point. The point remains that we artificially protect our big players from competition, and this is proven (through studies conducted in Canada) to have an effect of inflated prices. As I said, prices are lowere in parts of the country where a fourth player has managed to get a foothold. More of that would help us out.

I think I have explained quite well why a subsidy is different from price fixing at the retail level. When a Canadian shopper walks into a grocery store and picks up a gallon of milk, they then go to the cash and pay 3 times the price for that gallon of milk than they would if they were an American consumer. This is by design. Our government actively ensures that we pay more for our milk than we would if they did not fix the prices. Do you really not understand why that feels like a kick in the teeth if you are a working or middle class parent?

As importantly, I have also mentioned that I owned and operated a Cafe startup for a few years. The supply management regime for dairy is very hard on cafes and businesses that rely on dairy (pizza joints, cafes, ice cream parlors, etc.).

 

[jeremyemilio]

What are you talking about? Maga is bad enough but you guys are Canadian maga supporters which make zero sense lol

Now you’re in a weird situation where trump is trying to fuck over Canada for no reason and make threats to invade and then you and your retarded crew make threads defending him lol

I’ll summarise the stupidity of this thread

-trump tries to destroy their biggest ally
-Canadian maga supporter “what about them phone bills though”

Jfc lol you mfkers need a reality check

I resent your characterization of this thread or my argument.

I'm not a MAGA supporter and have not mounted a single defense of Trump throughout this thread. To the contrary, I've critiqued him plenty.

But that's the frigging point of the thread. We are entering week 4 of a 5 week federal election in Canada, and that election has somehow become so Trump focused, that if you try to pivot for a moment to talk about Canadian issues and Canadian policies implemented and/or endorsed by Canadian leaders in a Canadian federal election, you get called out for taking the focus off of the American president. What a garbage take.

 

[tastaylvr]

I resent your characterization of this thread or my argument.

I'm not a MAGA supporter and have not mounted a single defense of Trump throughout this thread. To the contrary, I've critiqued him plenty.

But that's the frigging point of the thread. We are entering week 4 of a 5 week federal election in Canada, and that election has somehow become so Trump focused, that if you try to pivot for a moment to talk about Canadian issues and Canadian policies implemented and/or endorsed by Canadian leaders in a Canadian federal election, you get called out for taking the focus off of the American president. What a garbage take.

Might as well ask Ukrainians to stop focusing on the Russian invasion and focus on their education lol

No shit Sherlock why wouldn’t they focus on the main point of Canada lol

Why the fuck would they talk about phone bills when you have your neighbour trying to crush you? Are you slow?

 

[avenue94]

This is a fairly recent development (five years ago, when Americans already had unlimited data plans, Canadians were paying similar prices for 6-8 GB).

This is the part that you keep missing. American carriers start with low prices to drive out competition and lock in customers, then they raise prices beyond market rates as competition is snuffed out. As I said previously, it's no skin off my nose if American carriers operate in Canada, but don't come crying in 10 years if you end up with even shittier plans because you were counting on one monopolist to save you from another, instead of addressing the root cause on a regulatory level.

I think I have explained quite well why a subsidy is different from price fixing at the retail level.

Again, the US does both. We directly subsidize farmers, as well as guarantee minimum wholesale prices, which in turn translate into minimum retail prices. That is just as much price fixing as in Canada, the only difference is the US is so much more willing to spend for farmers that we keep the price floor lower and offset it with more subsidies.

Let me ask this, how would you describe the American government's support for dairy? What are the main policy levers.

Do you really not understand why that feels like a kick in the teeth if you are a working or middle class parent?

My guy, America's Gini coefficient is almost 50% more than Canada's. I assure you the average American knows far more than the average Canadian about getting shit on by regressive policies.