Transgender politics: conversion therapy bans

[BEER]

So when "wires get crossed" that's not a physical aberration, only psychological? Seems contradictory.

Your biology most definitely has a correlation to your psychology.

"...wires get crossed..." was a metaphor. But I agree that your biological makeup can play a role in your psychiatric issues.

The problem here is that it's not being treated. I'm not talking about weird "conversion therapy". I'm talking about the dysphoria largely not being treated with therapy. We have a society, or at least a loud and powerful portion of society, that pushes the identity politics. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or bad to be trans. I'm arguing that I know how tough mental illness is, and a lot of people are being told to embrace theirs. As though it's a personality trait or quirk worth admiring.

Again, I know many trans people. With and without transitioning, none of them are happy with it. Dysphoria can be crippling. Most of them who go through some various amount of transitioning are just trying to find ways to lessen that dysphoria, but often it's not enough. I know a trans woman who transitioned fully and still has crippling bouts of dysphoria, and she has talked pretty openly about how therapy is useless since she's "butchered" herself. Her word, not mine. Now that it's been done, she has no real hope of working towards useful treatment. And trans people like her are the ones who kill themselves. The dysphoria drives these people to go to great lengths to modify themselves to an image in hopes of feeling the way they feel might be "correct", and when you go too far, there is no turning back.

It's an awful thing to see happen to people. And I have seen it happen to people.

I'm not coming here from a place of "fuck trans people, they're fucking freaks".

I've supported trans rights since I was a teenager. I've had and lost friends who were trans. So I am certainly trying to come to this conversation from a place of sensitivity, but I also can't continue to pretend like it's "no big deal". It's not a game of dress up. It's not cute personality quirks. It's fucking illness. And it is ugly and devastating and society is doing a terrible fucking job at working towards fixing it.

 

[helltoupee]

Your psychology can also correlate to your physiology. Brain plasticity, etc. Cognative behavioral therapy can bring about physical brain changes.

When people learn things, there is a physical change that takes place in the brain.

Exactly. So we don't really know the reason, it could be the chicken, or it could be the egg.

Maybe best not to jump to absolute conclusions and say that everyone who has GID is suffering from mental delusions from learned behavior.

 

[ripskater]

"...wires get crossed..." was a metaphor. But I agree that your biological makeup can play a role in your psychiatric issues.

The problem here is that it's not being treated. I'm not talking about weird "conversion therapy". I'm talking about the dysphoria largely not being treated with therapy. We have a society, or at least a loud and powerful portion of society, that pushes the identity politics. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or bad to be trans. I'm arguing that I know how tough mental illness is, and a lot of people are being told to embrace theirs. As though it's a personality trait or quirk worth admiring.

Again, I know many trans people. With and without transitioning, none of them are happy with it. Dysphoria can be crippling. Most of them who go through some various amount of transitioning are just trying to find ways to lessen that dysphoria, but often it's not enough. I know a trans woman who transitioned fully and still has crippling bouts of dysphoria, and she has talked pretty openly about how therapy is useless since she's "butchered" herself. Her word, not mine. Now that it's been done, she has no real hope of working towards useful treatment. And trans people like her are the ones who kill themselves. The dysphoria drives these people to go to great lengths to modify themselves to an image in hopes of feeling the way they feel might be "correct", and when you go too far, there is no turning back.

It's an awful thing to see happen to people. And I have seen it happen to people.

I'm not coming here from a place of "fuck trans people, they're fucking freaks".

I've supported trans rights since I was a teenager. I've had and lost friends who were trans. So I am certainly trying to come to this conversation from a place of sensitivity, but I also can't continue to pretend like it's "no big deal". It's not a game of dress up. It's not cute personality quirks. It's fucking illness. And it is ugly and devastating and society is doing a terrible fucking job at working towards fixing it.

Tell your friend who had the surgery but can't go back, to look up Sy Rogers. He has helped even people who had the sex change to go back. Now they won't have working parts, but they can still get help.

Sy Rogers is on youtube, former transgender.

 

[IDL]

Exactly. So we don't really know the reason, it could be the chicken, or it could be the egg.

Maybe best not to jump to absolute conclusions and say that everyone who has GID is suffering from mental delusions from learned behavior.

That's why therapy makes sense as an optional treatment. It may not work in all cases, but it seems like a good place to start in term of long term health benefit. Far better than taking drugs and surgery and such to go the other direction. That should be last resort.

Unless you think the idea of someone recovering from it and identifying with their biological body is not something that is a good outcome.

 

[sangreporsangre]

That's why therapy makes sense as an optional treatment. It may not work in all cases, but it seems like a good place to start in term of long term health benefit. Far better than taking drugs and surgery and such to go the other direction. That should be last resort.

Unless you think the idea of someone recovering from it and identifying with their biological body is not something that is a good outcome.

Right and the point of this thread is that trans activist rhetoric - and government policy, increasingly - is predicated on the idea that saving transition as a "last resort" is tantamount to sentencing the child to an inevitable suicide. If you don't affirm the chosen gender identity of the child, you're drastically raising their chance to kill themselves. So what is that based on?

 

[helltoupee]

That's why therapy makes sense as an optional treatment. It may not work in all cases, but it seems like a good place to start in term of long term health benefit. Far better than taking drugs and surgery and such to go the other direction. That should be last resort.

I don't have a problem with any of this. Certainly I wouldn't advocate for someone to jump into surgery or drugs without some vetting. I guess it's the approach that I take issue with.

Unless you think the idea of someone recovering from it and identifying with their biological body is not something that is a good outcome.

By "it" I'm assuming you mean therapy, which brings up an interesting point in relation to your use of the word "recovering".

Specifically, you stated earlier:

Your psychology can also correlate to your physiology. Brain plasticity, etc. Cognative behavioral therapy can bring about physical brain changes.

When people learn things, there is a physical change that takes place in the brain.

Given what you have stated above, are you suggesting that therapy might create a disconnect between possible physical chromosomal aberrations and how they are being programmed to feel about it?

 

[IDL]

Right and the point of this thread is that trans activist rhetoric - and government policy, increasingly - is predicated on the idea that saving transition as a "last resort" is tantamount to sentencing the child to an inevitable suicide. If you don't affirm the chosen gender identity of the child, you're drastically raising their chance to kill themselves. So what is that based on?

Yeah and I don't think it's about the kids at all in terms of political activism and this large international campaign about transgenderism. It's about.. Politics. Ideology. The kids are just pawns in the game.

 

[IDL]

I don't have a problem with any of this. Certainly I wouldn't advocate for someone to jump into surgery or drugs without some vetting. I guess it's the approach that I take issue with.



By "it" I'm assuming you mean therapy, which brings up an interesting point in relation to your use of the word "recovering".

Specifically, you stated earlier:



Given what you have stated above, are you suggesting that therapy might create a disconnect between possible physical chromosomal aberrations and how they are being programmed to feel about it?

By it I meant their gender confusion, or GID, or whatever you would deem the condition. Not identifying with your biological sex.

I think it has to do with establishing thought and behavioral patterns that lead to the desired outcome. I'm not sure what you mean about a disconnect, but in terms of physical 'rewiring' that can occur, then I think it's possible that in the process some pathways are closed off and some open up. That happens in our day to day lives as well, especially when re-enforced over time.

 

[ripskater]

Right and the point of this thread is that trans activist rhetoric - and government policy, increasingly - is predicated on the idea that saving transition as a "last resort" is tantamount to sentencing the child to an inevitable suicide. If you don't affirm the chosen gender identity of the child, you're drastically raising their chance to kill themselves. So what is that based on?

It's based on the LGBTQ agenda.

They hate father, mother children families. They want to destroy what it means to be a man, roles of a real man, roles of a woman, what it means to be a woman. They promote that a girl can grow up to be a man and a father. Bottom line, it creates less kids in healthy family situations. And promotes mental illness.

You destroy the building block of a society (families) then you see societal decay and you destroy the nation.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

I would say that most trans people are 'depressed, likely to commit self-harm', or suicide', because people like you convince them they have a mental illness and need therapy to correct the way they feel. It is this unaccepting suggestion that what they may be feeling, which could be completely due to the actual physical makeup of their body, that drives these people into despair.

It is an indisputable fact that people can be born with both sex chromosome variations, and we know that how you feel physically is directly connected to the brain. That is not simply a "mental illness" or a "delusion" as you say.

"Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex."

Looks like God fucked up.

Sex is based on gonads, not chromosomes. "Gender identity" is a pseudoscientific term that is used to describe simply what gender stereotypes people want to live by. But gender stereotypes are socially constructed. There's nothing innate about having ovaries that makes a person want to have long hair, lipstick, and wear dresses. Are you under the belief that a person's sex is based on their mind, not their body?

 

[IDL]

Sex is based on gonads, not chromosomes. "Gender identity" is a pseudoscientific term that is used to describe simply what gender stereotypes people want to live by. But gender stereotypes are socially constructed. There's nothing innate about having ovaries that makes a person want to have long hair, lipstick, and wear dresses. Are you under the belief that a person's sex is based on their mind, not their body?

Partially socially constructed I'd say.

Gender identity correlates so strongly to peoples biological identity, across cultures and history, that to think there is no biological factor at play seems rather bold.

 

[helltoupee]

Sex is based on gonads, not chromosomes. "Gender identity" is a pseudoscientific term that is used to describe simply what gender stereotypes people want to live by. But gender stereotypes are socially constructed. There's nothing innate about having ovaries that makes a person want to have long hair, lipstick, and wear dresses. Are you under the belief that a person's sex is based on their mind, not their body?

It's not that simplistic.

How do you explain women (ovaries) who also have testicular gonads? Or men who have testicles but also gonadal ovarian tissue? What sex are they?

You ask if I operate under the belief that a person's sex is based on their mind, not their body. I will re-direct you to the post you were responding to. Not everybody's physical makeup is purely male or female. There can be physical aberrations that may produce the gonads of male or female on the surface, but sexual development and gene expression due to chromosome mutation may become skewed, which play a role in the development of the brain, and how someone may perceive them self, regardless of what type of gonads they have.

Do I believe that all GID people are this way? No. There are certainly some people that may identify themselves as having a GID who have perfectly normal sexual development, which could be a cultural/environment/psychological issue.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

It's not that simplistic.

How do you explain women (ovaries) who also have testicular gonads? Or men who have testicles but also gonadal ovarian tissue? What sex are they?

You ask if I operate under the belief that a person's sex is based on their mind, not their body. I will re-direct you to the post you were responding to. Not everybody's physical makeup is purely male or female. There can be physical aberrations that may produce the gonads of male or female on the surface, but sexual development and gene expression due to chromosome mutation may become skewed, which play a role in the development of the brain, and how someone may perceive them self, regardless of what type of gonads they have.

Do I believe that all GID people are this way? No. There are certainly some people that may identify themselves as having a GID who have perfectly normal sexual development, which could be a cultural/environment/psychological issue.

You're amalgmating intersex with transgender. There's an objective, verifiable basis for claiming someone is neither male nor female, but intersex. Not so for someone "born in the wrong body".

 

[helltoupee]

You're amalgmating intersex with transgender. There's an objective, verifiable basis for claiming someone is neither male nor female, but intersex. Not so for someone with "born in the wrong body".

Studies have shown that *some* people who are transgender, ie., 'born in the wrong body', as you state, actually show the brain anatomy of the gender they identify with.

In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.

Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men."

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Studies have shown that *some* people who are transgender, ie., 'born in the wrong body', as you state, actually show the brain anatomy of the gender they identify with.

In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.

Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men."

A sample size of 7, 6 of whom took hormones -- means nothing. Seriously, it shows just how desperate transgender advocates are to normalize this lifestyle that they'd latch onto such weak "evidence". Further, after those studies were done, a study was done that revealed this region of the brain didn't develop until into adulthood. Yet many transgenders claim they "knew" they were born in the wrong body as early as childhood.

 

[Deleted member 196663]

I want to know what transgenderism looks like without access to hormones/surgery, and in a world where everyone wore the same uniform. Basically, what is transgenderism beyond the superficial?

When is a guy just a different kind of guy? Why does it become a guy that should have been a woman? This is probably the wrong place to ask this. I will try asking elsewhere as well.

 

[Deleted member 196663]

Studies have shown that *some* people who are transgender, ie., 'born in the wrong body', as you state, actually show the brain anatomy of the gender they identify with.

In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.

Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men."

Why is that data interpreted as if there was a "mistake" made that needs to be corrected? Why do we not just accept that we're dealing with something unique that should be embraced as it is?

 

[sangreporsangre]

I think the main thing that disturbs me is the puberty blockers. My whole issue with the banning of so-called conversion therapy is that the gender affirmation therapy seems to be a pretty quick path to puberty blockers. But what exactly is a puberty blocker? Commonly they use a drug called Lupron. It shuts down the pituitary gland, so it reduces the amount of testosterone produced by males and estrogen by females. Among other things, it's used to treat prostate cancer, breast cancer, and early puberty - which I guess is where the gender-benders got the idea from. Some kids have had a rare disorder where puberty starts at a much too early age, so they are prescribed Luperon.

Trans activists always claim that puberty blockers are "completely reversible". I've seen at least one online say that taking them is really no different than changing your hairstyle - there's nothing permanent about it. So what's the big deal? Put the kid on Lupron and treat them completely as if they were the opposite gender with a new name and pronouns, and we'll see in a couple/few years if they really are trans or if it was just a phase. Sounds legit. Meanwhile some of the top doctors in the gender therapy field such as Dr Joanna Olson-Kennedy and Dr Norman Spack report 100% of their patients who go on the blockers end up going on the cross-sex hormones (thereby rendering themselves infertile). The phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy" comes to mind, doesn't it?

So there really isn't a lot of research into the effects of using Lupron to treat gender dysphoria in children because the practice is so new. But the drug has been used on children in the past, as noted already for the early puberty or "precocious puberty" as it's sometimes called. Some people also retardedly used it off-label to try and make their kids grow taller. (Btw it's also being used off-label on kids with gender dysphoria - it hasn't been approved by the FDA for that purpose). So has there been any adverse effects?

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

None of it made sense to her until she discovered a community of women online who describe similar symptoms and have one thing in common: All had taken a drug called Lupron.

Thousands of parents chose to inject their daughters with the drug, which was approved to shut down puberty in young girls but also is commonly used off-label to help short kids grow taller.

The drug’s pediatric version comes with few warnings about long-term side effects. It is also used in adults to fight prostate cancer or relieve uterine pain and the Food and Drug Administration has warnings on the drug’s adult labels about a variety of side effects.

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25 year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26 year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Okla. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

In the interviews with women who took Lupron to delay puberty or grow taller, most described depression and anxiety. Several recounted their struggles, or a daughter’s, with suicidal urges. One mother of a Lupron patient described seizures.

If the FDA reaches any conclusions, Derricott would like to know. She says she took Lupron from age 5 to 12 to shut down early puberty. At 30, she’s among the first patients who took the drug — even before it was approved for pediatric use. She says now that she’s had more surgeries than her 79-year-old father, and suffers from a blood disorder and bone and joint problems.


“Excuse my language, but it’s hell,” she said.

http://californiahealthline.org/new...-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

Why the hell would anyone want to pump their kids full of this shit - and how the fuck can anyone say with a straight face that giving this shit to a physically healthy 11 year old is completely reversible and has no long term effects? This is insanity. And not only is this allowed, but any opposition to it is considered bigoted and dangerous - and in some places you could potentially have your kid taken away from you if you oppose it! Wtf is going on?

 

[cabal]

The doctors that did this to that boy should lose their medical license.

It's malpractice to do something that stupid to a 10 year old kid.

I have several friends that are openly homosexuals and I personaly think that this issue is totally different. It is horrific and has nothing to do with being liberal or open minded.

Those people deserve much more then losing their license. At minimum they deserve to receive the same treatments that they gave at those poor childs and then they should jailed for life.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Why is that data interpreted as if there was a "mistake" made that needs to be corrected? Why do we not just accept that we're dealing with something unique that should be embraced as it is?

More importantly, his study used 6 transgenders who had undergone hormone use and 1 who had not. So his sample size is literally 1.