Transgender politics: conversion therapy bans

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by sangreporsangre, May 17, 2017.

  1. sangreporsangre Silver Belt

    sangreporsangre
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    I'd like to see what some of you guys see regarding this legal trend happening here in North America, not sure if anything similar is taking place in Europe or anywhere else around the world. So in the US, Democrat lawmakers are trying to get a nationwide ban on what is known as "conversion therapy" for LGBTQ youth under the age of 18. The practice is already banned in: California, Illinois, New Jersey, Oregon, Vermont, New Mexico and the District of Columbia. In Canada it's banned in my home province of Ontario as of 2015, I believe it's illegal in Manitoba, and of course the process is in motion to have it outlawed in other provinces as we speak.

    So what does it mean exactly? Well I'm sure we've heard of parents sending their kids to some kind of "pray the gay away" camps or whatever put on by some church. Personally, I think services like that to try to turn a gay person into a straight person by shaming them or whatever are pretty dumb. If an adult wants to go that route for themselves, let them, but a parent shouldn't be allowed to force their kid under 18 into that. So I'm in agreement with the law. But what does it mean in a trans context? Well here's where it gets interesting, and it's a genius way to play with language that I'm sure @IDL would appreciate: "conversion therapy" for a trans youth is treatment that looks to avoid beginning the transition process soon as possible - socializing as the opposite gender and starting the child on puberty blockers - and see if the child can become comfortable in their own skin and live as their birth sex. Proponents of this method point to the research that shows about 80% of trans children grow to be cis-gendered if given time to mature (most grow to be homosexual). After all we're talking about emotionally disturbed children who have yet to go through puberty yet.

    Since so much trans rhetoric these days throws the word "science" around, one wonders why it's so important that therapy for both homosexuality and transgenderism would be covered under the same legislation - obviously from a scientific standpoint these are 2 different things right? Anyway here's an article I found interesting on the subject:

    https://thefederalist.com/2017/05/1...ensnaring-transgender-children/#disqus_thread

    If you read that and follow the links, it paints a pretty disturbing picture. "Conversion therapy" for trans is demonized and outlawed while "gender affirmation" is not just considered the preferred treatment option by trans activists, it's the only legitimate one and if you disagree you have blood on your hands from all the trans people who commit suicide due to a society that doesn't accept them. But they're big on dogma but short on evidence: there's no data showing that trans kids who go through the affirmation process are less likely to kill themselves than those who don't.

    We know that kids often have body issues, especially little girls. Could a child going through some emotional issues become convinced that they're trans - especially in the face of a media push that lionizes transgender people, and an education system that gets children to start thinking about their gender identity (which they stress has nothing to do with biological sex) at a young age? So if a child then insists that they are actually born in the wrong body, is it really fair that the only therapy available should be to start treating them as the opposite sex and chemically delaying their puberty, with an eye to starting them on cross hormone drugs (thereby sterilizing them) when they reach 16?

    I personally don't agree with this. What do you guys say? Should "conversion therapy" be considered the same for transgenderism as it is for homosexuality? Should transgender issues really be handled under the same umbrella as those of homosexuality in general? And should left-of-centre political parties (Liberals and Democrats here in North America) try to untangle themselves from the trans advocacy movement or should they stay the course?
     
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  2. freakyfarley Adam Farley inc.

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    Gay conversion therapy and trans conversion therapy are immensely different things. Giving puberty blockers to confused kids is imo child abuse.

    There's girls who are 'tomboys' who get hormone therapy for absolutely no reason at all.

    Gender non-conforming children get hormone therapy way too fast and it's unhealthy.
     
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  3. Tamriel Terror Silver Belt

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    If someone wants to go through the "conversion" its their decision, but it should be outlawed for anyone under 18, also any parent that pushes ideas like this on their children are messed up imo.

    Also just because a boy or girl plays with "girl or boy toys" or maybe likes to do things that are typically assigned the opposite gender DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE TRANS. They're kids, they aren't considering shit like "i'm really a boy inside" unless their parents are pushing that on them.
     
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    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  4. BEER Resident Feminist

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    Trans people need mental health care.

    Say that around most leftists and they'll bite your head off, but transgender folks, by definition, suffer from Gender Identity Disorder. This disorder is often coupled with Major Depression. Trans folks are no less likely to commit self-harm or suicide during or even after full transition. It's not an issue that can be fixed with hormones and surgeries. Trans people are suffering from mental illness, and most trans people I've met absolutely hate it. They're sick, they know they're sick, and they're surrounded by leftists with "savior" complexes that want to validate what they know to be sick delusions.

    Some transition. Some seek therapy. But I've never met a trans person who didn't know it wasn't healthy. The transition process caters to delusions brought on by illness. It's like handing someone with strong suicidal ideation a fucking razor blade. And the far left is pushing it because identity politics are all they have to hang their hats on. It's dangerous.
     
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  5. BEER Resident Feminist

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    I want to see hormonal therapy blocked until age 18 as well.

    No 14 year old boy should be altering his hormones because he doesn't feel masculine enough.
     
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  6. Tamriel Terror Silver Belt

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    Like I said, I feel its probably parents pushing the ideas on their kids, so a kid may goe through the transitions and realizes later on in life they are confused and not sure about themselves thus having high suicide rates. (Thats just a theory from me though).

    Either way they need help, and just because a boy plays with a barbie doesn't mean hes a "girl inside".
     
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  7. HereticBD Gold Belt

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    I saw this shit on an episode of VICE. Pretty fucked up that parents are taking their prepubescent children, who can't possibly have the capacity to make such a decision like this, to have this done. It's flat out enraging that doctors are okay with it.
     
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  8. ripskater Steel Belt

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    Bruce Jenner can chop off his penis and get breast implants but it's illegal to get counseling, mental and emotional help in California to help him go back to the sex he was born into.

    That's freakin messed up.
     
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  9. sangreporsangre Silver Belt

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    Here's an example. People who live in Toronto may have heard about this case when it happened, and Peterson has talked about it a bit as an example of political correctness gone mad. Dr Kenneth Zucker is a psychologist who was considered one of the leading authorities on gender dysphoria in children. He was head of the Child and Youth Gender Identity Clinic at CAMH which is a prestigious mental health and addiction facility in Toronto. He was a strong proponent of letting kids try to become more comfortable with their birth sex and not rush to transition them. He had a long track record and had treated hundreds of patients over the years, and he points to the research that shows that the majority of the children who report gender dysphoria will "desist" and live life as their birth sex. Well this put him at odds with the current "science", and he was demonized as a Literal Mengele by trans activists and their allies in the media for months before CAMH decided to commission an outside, independent report on the GIC. When the report found that the GIC had been involved in some abusive practices, Zucker was unceremoniously fired and the GIC shut down, to be re-opened as a gender clinic that focuses on gender affirmation. This was treated as a major victory for trans activists in Ontario, the heartless monster who stands on the bodies of so many trans kids who committed suicide was finally defeated.

    But then someone actually read the report and tried to verify it. I recommend everyone who has any interest in this at all read this article:

    It's really long but it's worth the read, it's a great work of investigative journalism. Anyway what the guy found out is, the allegations of abusive practices all came second hand - the authors of the report interviewed 3 trans activists (who had been leading the charge to get Zucker fired) and accepted their horror stories supposedly made by previous patients of the GIC as fact - without any apparent attempt to confirm them! The money shot of the report was an instance where Zucker supposedly made some kid take his shirt off in front of a bunch of people and called him a "hairy little vermin". An activist told this story on behalf of the person that it happened to. Well when the author of this article tracked the former patient down and tried to confirm the story, it took about a minute to realize that it didn't happen the way he said it did - it was at a completely different clinic, and Zucker wasn't even there. Just the details of the story should have set off alarm bells (the procedure he was at the clinic for was something that GIC didn't do, for example) but the authors of the report made no attempt to confirm it before including it in their report! And this is what got this guy fired??

    This seems to be the way it's going. Not based on science, or logic, or truth. It's more akin to a religious movement actually: go against the dogma and you are a heretic and must be destroyed.

    edit: forgot to include a link to the article like the clown that I am. I recommend this it's a good read, but really disturbing. http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html
     
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    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  10. freakyfarley Adam Farley inc.

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    Agreed
     
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  11. dontsnitch Gold Belt

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    So conversion therapy is illegal even for those who desire the therapy? That's... odd.
     
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  12. gannima Blue Belt

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    I suppose it depends on what exactly the conversion therapy is. If it's simply not beginning the transition process for kids, while they are kids, than I don't see a problem with that.

    Personally, I find the issues surrounding transgender identity to be fascinating because I'm not sure what to think about it. Allowing a kid to change genders seems too extreme to me and I would be in favor banning sex changes until 18 years old. On other hand I sympathize with those who know they are in the wrong body and have to live like that for years.

    I would like to see more research to determine if this is a mental illness and a treatable one.
     
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  13. HereticBD Gold Belt

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    If you took your 11 year-old to the tattoo parlor to get inked, you'd be looked down upon as a parent.

    Think about that.
     
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  14. ripskater Steel Belt

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    There was this show called Jazz. A junior high boy who became a girl.

    This is what happened one episode.

    The doctor put him on testosterone blockers, messing with his hormones made him severely depressed and then the doc put him on depression medication.

    It was so bad that the depression medication did not work. So the doc eventually took him off the testosterone blockers.

    Messing with a 13-14 year old's hormones, no wonder the kid was screwed up and depressed. But this is what PC has done to the medical profession. It is insanity.

    And if this kid decides to be a boy/man some day, his body is gonna be screwed up cause this is the hip/cool way to treat gender identity disorder.

    I have a suggestion, get the kid in counseling if it's not already illegal in your state.
     
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  15. sangreporsangre Silver Belt

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    Right just because a boy plays with a Barbie doesn't mean he's a girl, or a girl who wants to play football a boy. But what if they've been conditioned since a young age to look out for indicators like this to prove that they were born in the wrong body?

    You mentioned parents. What if the parents themselves have been conditioned in a way to look out for such things as evidence of transgenderism as well? You'll notice that pretty much all media stories about a child who is transitioning always start with how the kid was into the clothing and toys of the opposite gender at a young age. What if trusted media outlets pushed this as well?

    [​IMG]

    What if, say, you were someone my age (mid 30s) and a trusted television personality, who we were introduced to at a young age as an authority on science, also started pushing the same rhetoric?



    Could all this stuff be a factor in emotionally disturbed kids being misdiagnosed as trans and then having life-altering procedures done to them?
     
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  16. BEER Resident Feminist

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    I've read stories about parents who are clearly pushing their children in that direction. It's like the gender version of the Marinovich Project. If you take a kid and force him to play with barbies and teach him about "gender binaries" and shit, you're setting him up to eventually say "mommy, I think I'm a girl inside", and by 14 is on hormones to develop during puberty as a female.

    THAT should be outlawed.
     
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  17. Tamriel Terror Silver Belt

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    If the kid commits suicide and the parents pushed them to be trans, the parents should be charged imo.
     
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  18. MMA IAN Aussie Pride World Wide

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    Starting hormone blockers on children is absolute insanity. I am a manly man, but my younger brother is even more of a manly man.

    My brother is a gym rat who looks like an off season zyzz, has 2 trade certificates under his belt, runs his own successful construction business, dates a hot as fuck asian chick he met while travelling overseas but guess what? When he was a kid my brother liked dressing up in my moms clothes and high heels. He also named some of our furry toys very feminine names.

    There was never any pressure to identify as anything my parents are very middle of the road hippy types who don't care either way and who have a gay brother so they just left him to do what he wants and grow up.

    If my brother had been raised by these nutjob types he'd probably be fucked for life. Instead he GREW OUT OF IT.


    These wackos would have supported my brothers experimentation and encouraged it as a lifestyle choice instead of a simple experiment. These people are ruining their childrens lives
     
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  19. ultramanhyata Silver Belt

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    This is classic Marxism, guys. Karl was an adamant opponent of transgender conversion therapy, thinking it only served the interests of the bourgeois.
     
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  20. BEER Resident Feminist

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    Transgenderism is recognized as a mental illness. The idea that you can't get therapy and psychiatric assistance is fucking absurd. I'm wondering what the parameters of "conversion therapy" are in regards to transgender youth.
     
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