Transgender politics: conversion therapy bans

[Dr J]

Bruce Jenner can chop off his penis and get breast implants but it's illegal to get counseling, mental and emotional help in California to help him go back to the sex he was born into.

That's freakin messed up.

He is still the exact same sex he's been from Day 1.

 

[Dr J]

There was this show called Jazz. A junior high boy who became a girl.

This is what happened one episode.

The doctor put him on testosterone blockers, messing with his hormones made him severely depressed and then the doc put him on depression medication.

It was so bad that the depression medication did not work. So the doc eventually took him off the testosterone blockers.

Messing with a 13-14 year old's hormones, no wonder the kid was screwed up and depressed. But this is what PC has done to the medical profession. It is insanity.

And if this kid decides to be a boy/man some day, his body is gonna be screwed up cause this is the hip/cool way to treat gender identity disorder.

I have a suggestion, get the kid in counseling if it's not already illegal in your state.

That kid's been on the air since he was a child. I remember the first I am Jazz special where his mother claimed that as a 2 year old, Jazz asked when "the good fairy was going to come and change his penis to a vagina," as if a 2 year old is even capable of stringing a sentence like that together, much less understand the cencept. It was pretty clear they were shooting for a reality show from day 1.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Just to give you an idea of how transactivism works in the media. I earlier posted an in-depth article about Dr Zucker and the fiasco of him getting fired and having his life's work destroyed due to political pressure from activists. This is how it was reported on ThinkProgress:

Ex-gay therapy has been in a steady state of decline and disavowal, but the smaller movement of ex-trans therapy — efforts to discourage a transgender identity — have remained ongoing. Now, one of the most prominent clinics providing such treatment is closing and its leader seems to have entered an “end of career” phase in which he will stop advocating for the harmful treatment.

The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) in Toronto, Canada’s largest mental health center, is closing the Child, Youth, and Family Gender Identity Clinic (GIC) following a damning independent review that detailed antiquated practices still in use and an evident anti-transgender bias. Dr. Kenneth Zucker, who has been an advocate for anti-trans reparative therapy and has headed up GIC for over 30 years, has apparently already left.

The independent review of the clinic began earlier this year after CAMH fielded concerns from community partners about what was being practiced within GIC. Two psychologists interviewed the staff and clients, reviewed records, and consulted with other groups that have worked with the clinic. Dr. Suzanne Zinck and Dr. Antonio Pignatiello stopped short of confirming that reparative therapy was definitely taking place, but could not rule out that it was. Indeed, the report found a consistent bias against transgender identities and the use of practices that shame and stigmatize people for embracing them.

Behavior vs. Identity
GIC appealed to families who were looking to stymie the development of gender non-conforming characteristics in children. These kids would be subjected to play therapy in which they were forced to play with gender-conforming toys, and parents would be instructed to schedule more play dates with the same sex.

Zucker has been an adamant proponent of the myth that 80 percent of kids with cross-gender identification will eventually turn out to just be gay, not transgender. The study that produced this conclusion, however, relied on conflating all gender non-conforming behavior with actually asserting a different gender identity. What research has since shown is that the children who assert that they are the other gender actually are and are not likely to change. By over-including all gender non-conforming children, those numbers actually communicate nothing about the outcomes of trans kids, but that hasn’t stopped Zucker from using the study to motivate families into thinking such behavior is just a phase and can be corrected.

Zucker and GIC exhibited a bias against any gender-nonconforming behavior. As the report recounts, one child had resolved all gender and body dysphoria issues, but the clinic still advised the parents to have him “spend more time with cisgendered [sic] boys because he had effeminate speech and mannerisms. These were not the goals of the client or family.” This kind of advice for controlling the behavior and friendships of kids was common.

https://thinkprogress.org/infamous-...r-transgender-youth-set-to-close-bd4e960519c3

So right at the end he throws in a little update:

UPDATE: An investigation by Jesse Singal at New York Magazine found inconsistencies and unproven allegations in the report.

Well seeing as how your whole article you just wrote deferred to that "independent report" as the gospel, don't you think maybe this new information merits more than just a sentence at the end of the article?

Here's how MTV News reported it, under the headline: "Hooray! A Big, Bad Conversion Therapy Clinic for Trans Youth in Canada is Shutting Down":

News about conversion therapy is normally super depressing. But this time it's something worth celebrating.

Conversion therapy, which falsely claims to be able to "fix" LGBT youth by "converting" them into straight, gender-conforming citizens, has been widely disavowed as harmful by medical professionals -- but it's unfortunately still legal in most of the U.S. and Canada. Thankfully, though, a prominent Canadian clinic offering anti-trans "therapy" for youth and families is closing its doors.




✔@sophiaphotos
The CAMH toronto clinic for you has been shut down after we all made a fuss about them practicing conversion therapy http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/camh-gender-identity-1.3366424 …

11:44 PM - 15 Dec 2015

CAMH closing gender identity clinic following damning review of services
The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health is "winding down" its gender identity services for children and youth after an external review found its approach was out of step with accepted clinical...



According to a report from ThinkProgress, the Child, Youth, and Family Gender Identity Clinic (GIC) at Ontario's Center for Addiction And Mental Health (CAMH) in Toronto has spent over 30 years subjecting kids to things like "play therapy in which they were forced to play with gender-conforming toys," in an effort to "correct" their gender non-conforming behavior.

Earlier this year, an independent review of the clinic was launched because community partners expressed concerns over their techniques. The investigation uncovered that, as per usual with conversion therapy, the practices at GIC relied heavily on shaming trans and gender-nonconforming kids and teens about their gender variance, noting that patients reported being openly mocked by clinicians and told things like, "You're too smart to be trans" by clinic head Dr. Kenneth Zucker -- who is now no longer working at CAMH.


CONVERSION THERAPY IS KILLING LGBT YOUTH — AND IT’S STILL LEGAL IN 77% OF THE U.S.

“This report is damning, and long overdue,” trans equality advocate Brynn Tannehill told ThinkProgress. “The transgender community has been saying the same things the report concluded for over a decade. Given the unethical, unscientific, and damaging nature of the work done at CAMH and revealed by this report, the research done there by Dr. Zucker and his cohorts there will be relegated to the dustbin of junk science, where it should have been all along.”

We can only hope this change signals the beginning of the end for the other conversion therapy organizations still peddling the dangerous and ineffective practice in the U.S. and Canada. Then we can really celebrate.

You see how they've hyperlinked the phrase "dangerous and ineffective". You'd think that it would link you to some kind of research asserting that claim, but instead it's a link to another MTV article about Obama speaking out against "conversion therapy".

http://www.mtv.com/news/2690170/can...-family-gender-identity-clinic-shutting-down/

It's really weird, there are several articles by this same author all pushing the exact same message: that if you don't seek to affirm the "authentic gender" of a child who claims to be trans or non-binary, you are pushing them towards suicide.

http://www.mtv.com/news/2685536/con...-lgbt-youth-therapeutic-fraud-prevention-act/

http://www.mtv.com/news/2250545/trans-kids-new-york-times-op-ed/

Is it just me or is this really weird? When I was younger MTV was known as a music channel and the only news they reported on was entertainment news - what new albums were coming out, movies etc. Why are they so enthusiastically pushing this highly politicized medical issue where there is no real clear science? And who is the target demographic of MTV News? Is it adults or is it teens and pre-teens?

 

[BEER]

I know we disagree but I believe that someone can leave the homosexual lifestyle. Like Sy Rogers, former homosexual and former transgender. Now married for 30 plus years and has a grandkid now. I guess that's another topic. I think you do have to want to change. And you need people to help and support you in this change. I also happen to believe in God and I believe you need God to help you. I guess that's another thread.

I do believe you can't force someone to change.

But we probably can agree that banning conversion therapy for transgender minors is a stupid thing for states like California to do.

To address your first point: You can absolutely change your lifestyle. There isn't much difference between men who come out as gay after getting married and having a family and men who may walk back into the closet. Sexual orientation is who you want to fuck, not who you choose to fuck. That guy isn't any less gay, he just chooses not to express his sexuality as such.

And again: I want a hard definition for "conversion therapy" in regards to transgendered folks. Gender and sexual orientation are different things entirely.

 

[IDL]

Is it just me or is this really weird? When I was younger MTV was known as a music channel and the only news they reported on was entertainment news - what new albums were coming out, movies etc. Why are they so enthusiastically pushing this highly politicized medical issue where there is no real clear science? And who is the target demographic of MTV News? Is it adults or is it teens and pre-teens?

MTV is part of what is sometimes referred to as the 'culture creation industry'.

Music, Movies, TV, and the like, play a large role in shaping culture over time.

So these areas are hotbeds for social engineering and propoganda. If you want to tinker with the culture and how people perceive things, then these are the industries you want to plant your ideologies and agendas into (the education system as well obviously)

It does seem to be getting more overt as of late, but I think there has always been an element of it going on.

 

[BEER]

I would say that most trans people are 'depressed, likely to commit self-harm', or suicide', because people like you convince them they have a mental illness and need therapy to correct the way they feel. It is this unaccepting suggestion that what they may be feeling, which could be completely due to the actual physical makeup of their body, that drives these people into despair.

It is an indisputable fact that people can be born with both sex chromosome variations, and we know that how you feel physically is directly connected to the brain. That is not simply a "mental illness" or a "delusion" as you say.

"Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex."

Looks like God fucked up.

Gender Identity Disorder, or Gender Dysphoria is a mental illnese that manifests as transgenderism.

We're not talking about the spectrum of chromosomal abnormalities in this thread. I'm not suggesting that we "fix" trans people. I'm a staunch supporter of trans rights. I don't know why it's controversial to people like you that others say "hey, maybe we shouldn't put children on hormones to alter their gender expression".

GID is a mental illness. There is nothing wrong with postulating that perhaps we treat the illness instead of catering to the dysphoria. I have more than a few trans friends, and dysphoria can be fucking crippling. Not a single one of them "wants" to be trans. I've never met a trans person who is happy with their condition, with or without transition.

To imply that people who look at the issue as nuanced and multifaceted are the reason trans people kill themselves is absolutely mind boggling. People like you are the reason trans people can't get real help.

Believe it or not, you can accept and support trans people without falling for the "trans isn't mentally ill" rhetoric.

 

[Cygnus A]

Bruce Jenner can chop off his penis and get breast implants but it's illegal to get counseling, mental and emotional help in California to help him go back to the sex he was born into.

That's freakin messed up.

Forced therapy is the more appropriate designation. You can choose to go to a counselor on your own, but forcing people to go because you do not agree with their choices is an entirely different ballgame.

 

[ripskater]

To address your first point: You can absolutely change your lifestyle. There isn't much difference between men who come out as gay after getting married and having a family and men who may walk back into the closet. Sexual orientation is who you want to fuck, not who you choose to fuck. That guy isn't any less gay, he just chooses not to express his sexuality as such.

And again: I want a hard definition for "conversion therapy" in regards to transgendered folks. Gender and sexual orientation are different things entirely.

I don't know if this is an official definition for conversion therapy.

But I would say it's therapy to deal with past sexual and mental abuse from childhood that most transgenders were victims of. Also addressing the mental and emotional issues from the traumatic events of childhood.

Part of the therapy would probably be making healthy relationships and friendships with the sex you were born. Cause most transgenders don't have them.

And changing your behaviors and how you view yourself.

I say that any kid converting back to his original gender would need support from friends and family.


I would add some spiritual support in there too because I'm a Christian and I believe in the power of God to help us.

I think the last thing would be to have a conversion camp where you get a bunch of mentally ill and homosexual transgenders together. They will all just get distracted by each other and probably have sex with each other. That's like putting a guy through porn addiction therapy and the college cheerleading squad is attending therapy with him.

 

[ripskater]

Forced therapy is the more appropriate designation. You can choose to go to a counselor on your own, but forcing people to go because you do not agree with their choices is an entirely different ballgame.

Well you won't have much success forcing it on someone.

But I'm not against a parent sending their 16 year old to a counselor to find out how to break out of the lifestyle. At least they would know what steps to take and who to go to when they are down and out and want a life change. Making them go to 2 or 3 sessions wouldn't hurt a kid if you allow them to make the decision on the direction of their life.

Better that than them turning into an HIV positive, drug addicted prostitute at 18. They do need to know the facts and they do need to know who they can turn to and how to get out of it.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Trans activists seem to be well-connected, well-funded and well-organized. In addition to the ones I've listed already, they've won other victories as well.

That's from a couple years ago in Oregon. So previously, activists had successfully lobbied to have transgender surgeries and hormone treatments covered under the taxpayer-funded health plan. But a year later they were able to take it further: reducing the age limits for procedures with parental consent and making the surgeries easier to get by requiring 1 referral letter instead of 2. Thank goodness. Now a 15 year old girl can get a double mastectomy on the taxpayer's dime without having to go through the inconvenience of getting a second opinion. She doesn't even need her parent's permission - she's 15 after all and old enough to make permanent, life-altering choices like this on her own.

https://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/19/c...or-your-15-year-old-without-parental-consent/

In Ontario, both top and bottom surgeries are covered by OHIP (our health plan), although bottom surgery requires 2 referral letters! Gasp, just shows how some people just still don't get it. What if the patient kills themselves while waiting to get the second letter? So how young can someone get taxpayer-funded sex reassignment surgery, or should I say "gender confirming surgery"? Well....

Age requirements

There is no minimum age requirement for sex reassignment surgery that must be met for OHIP to approve funding. The responsibility for determining whether a patient is capable of consenting to treatment is that of the treating provider.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/srs/

 

[ripskater]

Trans activists seem to be well-connected, well-funded and well-organized. In addition to the ones I've listed already, they've won other victories as well.

That's from a couple years ago in Oregon. So previously, activists had successfully lobbied to have transgender surgeries and hormone treatments covered under the taxpayer-funded health plan. But a year later they were able to take it further: reducing the age limits for procedures with parental consent and making the surgeries easier to get by requiring 1 referral letter instead of 2. Thank goodness. Now a 15 year old girl can get a double mastectomy on the taxpayer's dime without having to go through the inconvenience of getting a second opinion. She doesn't even need her parent's permission - she's 15 after all and old enough to make permanent, life-altering choices like this on her own.

https://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/19/c...or-your-15-year-old-without-parental-consent/

In Ontario, both top and bottom surgeries are covered by OHIP (our health plan), although bottom surgery requires 2 referral letters! Gasp, just shows how some people just still don't get it. What if the patient kills themselves while waiting to get the second letter? So how young can someone get taxpayer-funded sex reassignment surgery, or should I say "gender confirming surgery"? Well....



http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/srs/

Can't go to the eye doctor for a checkup, contacts, and eye glasses without parental consent.

But you can get your penis chopped off without your parents knowing.

Makes sense to me.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Trainsgender issues really big this past few years.

 

[MMA IAN]

That's from a couple years ago in Oregon. So previously, activists had successfully lobbied to have transgender surgeries and hormone treatments covered under the taxpayer-funded health plan. But a year later they were able to take it further: reducing the age limits for procedures with parental consent and making the surgeries easier to get by requiring 1 referral letter instead of 2. Thank goodness. Now a 15 year old girl can get a double mastectomy on the taxpayer's dime without having to go through the inconvenience of getting a second opinion. She doesn't even need her parent's permission - she's 15 after all and old enough to make permanent, life-altering choices like this on her own.

https://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/19/c...or-your-15-year-old-without-parental-consent/

In Ontario, both top and bottom surgeries are covered by OHIP (our health plan), although bottom surgery requires 2 referral letters! Gasp, just shows how some people just still don't get it. What if the patient kills themselves while waiting to get the second letter? So how young can someone get taxpayer-funded sex reassignment surgery, or should I say "gender confirming surgery"? Well....



http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/srs/

Genuinely interested in how many of these surgeries are performed per year. You shouldn't have to worry too much about the patient killing themselves while waiting. Suicide is just as likely post surgery, since they remain with no psychological help.


How many of these 'top' surgeries are carried out under taxpayer funding?

 

[helltoupee]

Gender Identity Disorder, or Gender Dysphoria is a mental illnese that manifests as transgenderism.

We're not talking about the spectrum of chromosomal abnormalities in this thread.

How can you make the absolute statement that GID is not caused by a chromosomal abnormality?

"The causes of gender dysphoria are not fully clear.
It was traditionally thought to be a psychiatric condition meaning a mental ailment. Now there is evidence that the disease may not have origins in the brain alone.
Studies suggest that gender dysphoria may have biological causes associated with the development of gender identity before birth.
More research is needed before the causes of gender dysphoria can be fully understood."

The rest of your post I somewhat agree with, and apologize if I mis-characterized your sentiments.

 

[freaky]

But if you're going to transition, you have to do it at a young age. It will be harder to do it after 18. This ban is racist.

 

[BEER]

How can you make the absolute statement that GID is not caused by a chromosomal abnormality?

"The causes of gender dysphoria are not fully clear.
It was traditionally thought to be a psychiatric condition meaning a mental ailment. Now there is evidence that the disease may not have origins in the brain alone.
Studies suggest that gender dysphoria may have biological causes associated with the development of gender identity before birth.
More research is needed before the causes of gender dysphoria can be fully understood."

The rest of your post I somewhat agree with, and apologize if I mis-characterized your sentiments.

I support more studies being done, but gender, as a psychological notion, is the relationship between your brain and your genitals. When wires get crossed and someone with a penis thinks they were meant to have a vagina, that is almost certainly psychological. While other biological factors must be accounted for, as in all psychiatric evaluation, the basic structure of GID is pretty solid.

 

[ripskater]

But if you're going to transition, you have to do it at a young age. It will be harder to do it after 18. This ban is racist.

Tougher to transition back to a man when you took hormones, and depression medication to stop puberty from happening.

Get the mental and emotional help instead.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Genuinely interested in how many of these surgeries are performed per year. You shouldn't have to worry too much about the patient killing themselves while waiting. Suicide is just as likely post surgery, since they remain with no psychological help.


How many of these 'top' surgeries are carried out under taxpayer funding?

All the surgeries would be carried out under taxpayer funding in the above mentioned areas, as long as you have a referral note from a gender clinician.

 

[helltoupee]

I support more studies being done, but gender, as a psychological notion, is the relationship between your brain and your genitals. When wires get crossed and someone with a penis thinks they were meant to have a vagina, that is almost certainly psychological. While other biological factors must be accounted for, as in all psychiatric evaluation, the basic structure of GID is pretty solid.

So when "wires get crossed" that's not a physical aberration, only psychological? Seems contradictory.

Your biology most definitely has a correlation to your psychology.

 

[IDL]

So when "wires get crossed" that's not a physical aberration, only psychological? Seems contradictory.

Your biology most definitely has a correlation to your psychology.

Your psychology can also correlate to your physiology. Brain plasticity, etc. Cognative behavioral therapy can bring about physical brain changes.

When people learn things, there is a physical change that takes place in the brain.