The official thread of Yi Long - questions

[Snubnoze707]

Facepalm.
The shit you showed is certainly movie fantasy, not TCMA. People don't do flying sidekicks in TCMA any more than in MMA. It's peformance wushu nonsense which does. And don't show anything from mainland China please, high level TCMA is dead there. No one in the PRC knows how to correctly apply the forms; I've seen these TCMA "masters“ from China talking to real TCMA talents from Hong Kong, saying that forms are useless and real fighting is like Sanda, which just confirmed that they have no idea how to apply TCMA at all. The United States has a far higher TCMA talent than China right now, and that's saying a lot.

So even the masters from China realize its bogus and favor Sanda. Gotcha.

The amount of Bullshido in the US is incredibly high.

 

[Thycidides]

Heavenly Kaghan- why don't you enter some grappling or sanda competition and win using sticky hands? Film a randori session with a judo guy or wrestler where you prevent him from grabbing you?

In any case I've actually seen something like sticky hands not only in Judo but Muay Thai


Yet somehow I think I will be told true sticky hands is totally different!

 

[heavenly kaghan]

So even the masters from China realize its bogus and favor Sanda. Gotcha.

The amount of Bullshido in the US is incredibly high.

Wrong. I honestly find people in this forum have trouble reading. Fighters from China use Sanda because TCMA is dead since the Cultural revolution. TCMA "masters" in China are clueless how to fight with TCMA since the 60s, all they have is performance Wushu (sanda came from taking moves out of wushu and modifying them and combining them with shuaijiao, its not even a secret), so many can only draw upon what is available to them in terms of fighting, and thats sanda. There is a reintroduction of actual TCMA in Canton since Hong Kong's return to China, but its still in small scale. The amount of bullshido in the US is high, but the amount in China is a mountain next to that molehole.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Heavenly Kaghan- why don't you enter some grappling or sanda competition and win using sticky hands? Film a randori session with a judo guy or wrestler where you prevent him from grabbing you?

In any case I've actually seen something like sticky hands not only in Judo but Muay Thai


Yet somehow I think I will be told true sticky hands is totally different!

Have you read a single thing I've posted? Seriously. I'm repeating myself. Sticky hands does not work with boxing or mma gloves, we've played with it and tried, and anyone can do it if they want so of course it doesn't work in Sanda. Again you can't just take a style, break it apart and claim how certain moves in it does not work in certain sports. Its asinine. You have to view the system as a whole; sticky hands are applied with striking to accompany it, and thats not legal in grappling sports. Judo also has a gi, which changes the dynamic a lot. Wrestling is not about wrist control, sticky hands can only prevent certain wrestling offenses, and delay a takedown, but its offensives (that is, striking) are banned in wrestling and Judo or just doesn't score (because you have to pin them down to score in wrestling and Judo, which is not how sticky hands maneuver works, like Shuaijiao, in sticky hands, the goal is simply to throw the opponent of balance for better strikes). Different rules, different situation, different scoring and hence different moves are used.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

and yet this pure nonsense has video proof of it actually working unlike every single thing you have claimed. If traditional martial arts were ever effective they died out a couple hundred years ago.

Great, you've shown a pure nonsense thats not actual TCMA, and you call that prove? Thats called false analogy. There are WC videos of Wing Chun fighters beating boxers, yet many are sloppy fighters, I don't see people using that to show boxing sucks and that guy in that video is even worse in TCMA, if he even trained in it. I repeat, there are verifying accounts of TCMA arts like Mizong and Yiquan beating Judokas in the 1930s. Thats not, "a couple of hundred years ago." It's only a few decades ago, and its nothing mystical. Most people just aren't combat prone these days, its that simple, but the moves still exist.

The so called "masters" today do not have anyone to spar with and without that they can never achieve a high level.

Just stop talking about something you have no background in. Please. Just because someone claims they are a master, doesn't mean they are. Forms are move sequences that draws out the different outcomes of a fight, if you are told that its like shadow boxing, then your instructor is just clueless (which is in fact the majority of instructors outside of Hong Kong, Singapore, and Malaysia); even high level BJJ nowadays developed forms.

Doing forms is like watching instructional videos they can help some but only when you have the experience of hard sparring with a high level person can you begin to truly understand the complexity of the movement.

Your comment just shows you don't understand how TCMA works even after I explained it in detail. At this moment I think I'm just playing lute to a bunch of ox, so I'm not inclined to continue unless people actually show they understand the system to make this conversation even remotely productive. TCMA is based on trapping and position control more than it is about blind striking. Striking is only done after trapping or through superior positioning. Hard sparring helps, but its not central to TCMA sparring, just like hard ground and pound isn't central in BJJ ground fighting. So when you say these guys lack full contact sparring, it makes about as much sense as saying BJJ guys does not do full contact sparring.

I also love how you act like they can just meet in the gym and find out if their moves work. Im sure there are tons of sanda guys who will gladly take off the gloves if one of these guys wants to walk into their gym and challenge one of them. There are hundreds of video of guys making challenges to pro fighters in china and just getting there ass whopped like this guy

For the umptieth time, TCMA is mostly dead in China, I've also beaten self proclaimed TCMA experts in Sanda sparring in China, whats your point?

 

[Thycidides]

Have you read a single thing I've posted? Seriously. I'm repeating myself. Sticky hands does not work with boxing or mma gloves, we've played with it and tried, and anyone can do it if they want so of course it doesn't work in Sanda. Again you can't just take a style, break it apart and claim how certain moves in it does not work in certain sports. Its asinine. You have to view the system as a whole; sticky hands are applied with striking to accompany it, and thats not legal in grappling sports. Judo also has a gi, which changes the dynamic a lot. Wrestling is not about wrist control, sticky hands can only prevent certain wrestling offenses, and delay a takedown, but its offensives (that is, striking) are banned in wrestling and Judo or just doesn't score (because you have to pin them down to score in wrestling and Judo, which is not how sticky hands maneuver works, like Shuaijiao, in sticky hands, the goal is simply to throw the opponent of balance for better strikes). Different rules, different situation, different scoring and hence different moves are used.

Why don't you spar bare knuckle and or create your own ruleset? Ive done some vale tudo type sparring myself, and while I don't recommend it being done often it has some benefits.

It actually shouldn't be to difficult to find some mma or bjj fighters willing to do so.

Hell now that ive thought about it ive been smacked in the face and eye pocked a lot in both bjj and judo. I think you should roll against beginners and or compete in both sports. referees give white belts lots of lee way. Depending on the tournament rough tactics are more or less allowd.

 

[DastardlyMass]

your the one saying there are still some of these guys out there and they would kick peoples asses but the gloves make it impossible for them to do it. Like i said they do not need gloves in the street or the gym and yet we have never heard a story of a decent level professional fighter getting worked over by one of these "traditional masters"

I understand hand trapping and that some of the techniques are still valid today because guys like fedor made a career out of very rudimentary hand traps. My problem is you still must have the "striking" skills necessary to be able to capitalize on hand traps. Just doing forms or even shadow boxing is never going to get the power or timing needed to actually pull the moves off with regularity on a real live moving opponent.

 

[spinningshiz]

This guy's arguments would have been a lot better if he just used Shuaijiao to prove the effectiveness of TCMA.

 

[Blazeblack]

What do we have here? More mockings of TCMA from guys who never trained in them? It really makes people who actually understand the system beyond the superficial want to facepalm. That aside, there are no evidence Yi Long even knows TCMA beyond the absolute superficial, if even that. TCMA kicks are designed with shoes on, and over 80% of the hand attacks all revolves around trappings and wrist control; strikings are only secondary, but KB is trying to reduce this complicated standup style into a pure "striking" sport. This is like reducing the ground game in MMA to just ground and pound with boxing gloves on, making positioning and control difficult and throw in thick elbow and knee pads too, which makes joint submissions extremely hard to execute. Hence, most of TCMA outside of a few basic strikes becomes useless under KB rulesets or even current MMA ones. Anyone who claims they use TCMA foremost in the ring is full of shit, if they do, they will either get knocked out or take a severe beating the entire round, because they are fighting against guys who are trained only to strike.

I don't have a damn thing against chinese martial arts, in fact I think it gets a bad rap. Pseudo science anime moves on the other hand can suck me until they can prove they aren't rooming with the tooth fairy and trump's moral compass.

 

[Deleted member 363827]

Why are we even bother discussing fantasy Wuxia film or things straight out of Jin Yong's novel here lol
This is muay thai and kickboxing forum not TMA forum.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

your the one saying there are still some of these guys out there and they would kick peoples asses but the gloves make it impossible for them to do it. Like i said they do not need gloves in the street or the gym and yet we have never heard a story of a decent level professional fighter getting worked over by one of these "traditional masters"

I understand hand trapping and that some of the techniques are still valid today because guys like fedor made a career out of very rudimentary hand traps. My problem is you still must have the "striking" skills necessary to be able to capitalize on hand traps. Just doing forms or even shadow boxing is never going to get the power or timing needed to actually pull the moves off with regularity on a real live moving opponent.

You are assuming that high level TCMA practitioners are common today, they are not. The chances of any "master" you see getting beat up in a ring is just some mediocre fighter who claims they are "masters“. Again, TCMA does not have a standard system of measuring your competence like BJJ or Judo belt systems do. Anyone can claim shit and no one can verify it. I have seen too much politics in the TCMA world, the nonsense is prevalent, but it doesn't mean no one knows how to fight with it. You do have reliable records of TCMA beating high level Judokas in the early 20th century after all.

Why don't you spar bare knuckle and or create your own ruleset? Ive done some vale tudo type sparring myself, and while I don't recommend it being done often it has some benefits.

It actually shouldn't be to difficult to find some mma or bjj fighters willing to do so.

Hell now that ive thought about it ive been smacked in the face and eye pocked a lot in both bjj and judo. I think you should roll against beginners and or compete in both sports. referees give white belts lots of lee way. Depending on the tournament rough tactics are more or less allowd.

Wait, what made you think I haven't competed in grappling before or spare bare knuckles? I'm a blue belt in BJJ and a green in Judo (I think if it wasn't for bureaucracy I should be a brown, I'm certainly at the level of one just from my Sanda training). That has nothing to do with the topic however. You were asking why TCMA masters don't win in a Sanda or MMA match; its simple, the same reason why boxers dont win an MMA match or how MMA fighter don't win a boxing match. Why is it so hard to understand when it comes to TCMA?

 

[heavenly kaghan]

This guy's arguments would have been a lot better if he just used Shuaijiao to prove the effectiveness of TCMA.

And you are basing this argument on what exactly? Assumptions? experience? or just because some people doing MMA who beat up some self proclaimed masters in North America said TCMA sucks? This is tossing out the window that TCMA have records of beating Judokas several times in history, and the Shuaijiao founder Chang Dongsheng explicitly applied systems such as Bagua and Xingyi into his shuaijiao system. But no, guys like Joe Rogan must know shuaijiao better than Chang himself right?

 

[heavenly kaghan]

I don't have a damn thing against chinese martial arts, in fact I think it gets a bad rap. Pseudo science anime moves on the other hand can suck me until they can prove they aren't rooming with the tooth fairy and trump's moral compass.

Pseudo science anime moves certainly does suck, so people should stop using them to prove that real TCMA sucks, when they don't even know what it looks like.

 

[Snubnoze707]

"You do have reliable records of TCMA beating high level Judokas in the early 20th century after all."

OMG!

Really, this is what you're grasping onto?

 

[Thycidides]

I'm asking about your personal experience striking without gloves, in vale tudo or bare knuckle boxing. Have you done anything like that? It sound like you haven't because you keep mentioning participating in sports where that isn't allowed.

In any case I'm kind of confused that you think TCMA is effective despite being unable to implement it yourself. Generally if someone thinks a little known stratagy in grappling is successful it's because they can implement it themselves or know someone who can in a contest.

To be honest you'd be a a lot more persuasive if you said studying TCMA made you better at bjj and judo and you are really good at grip fighting due to exposure to sticky hands.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

"You do have reliable records of TCMA beating high level Judokas in the early 20th century after all."

OMG!

Really, this is what you're grasping onto?

Good grief, why do you like to cherry pick lines so much? No, it really isnt, if you bothered to read at all what I wrote.

To give you a glimpse of how rare TCMA masters are, I have seen about 2-3 person in my life in HK, all from the same line of school, who can actually apply forms the way they are supposed to be applied, that is as a sequence for controlling the entire fight, even when I've visited dozens of schools, the rest could only break down forms into individual combinations and these people in America already call themselves masters; I've wrote about this for a living, I've done the research.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

I'm asking about your personal experience striking without gloves, in vale tudo or bare knuckle boxing. Have you done anything like that? It sound like you haven't because you keep mentioning participating in sports where that isn't allowed..

I have sparred plenty in TCMA without gloves as that is how its done. I talked about sports where it isn't allowed because you are the one who brought it up to denounce TCMA.

In any case I'm kind of confused that you think TCMA is effective despite being unable to implement it yourself. Generally if someone thinks a little known stratagy in grappling is successful it's because they can implement it themselves or know someone who can in a contest.

First, where have I said I cannot implement it to myself? Second, I am merely cautioning you to stop using faulty samples that isn't high TCMA or TCMA at all to prove TCMA's inefficiency. If you have little information about it, the wisest thing is to not talk at all rather than make analogies that are just wrong.

To be honest you'd be a a lot more persuasive if you said studying TCMA made you better at bjj and judo and you are really good at grip fighting due to exposure to sticky hands.

I've already answered just that in a post you responded to. Read it. I said I could use sticky hands to prevent my hands and wrists from getting grabbed in grappling matches without gi. However, you asked why this doesn't allow a person knowing sticky hands to win the said grappling matches. I pointed out to you that grappling is a different sport from sticky hands, and people do not just grab wrists and hands, they also grab your legs, hips, or gi. That is why a person with sticky hands cannot just walk in and dominate a grappling match. Will it help? Yes. Is learning sticky hands going to do more for someone than grappling itself? No, for the same reason training in MMA will not make you better at BJJ competition against someone training specifically for BJJ. I've also never seen a BJJ guy coming in and dominating a TCMA competition, but I don't see anyone using that to denounce BJJ. This really isn't that difficult of a concept to grasp.

Also, I have crossed hands with high level TCMA masters before to see what they can do. The Yi Liq master Sam Chin for example can trap my hands and open me for shots as they are supposed to do. However, the problem with a lot of modern sport mentality fighters is that once their hands are trapped, for strikes, they do not understand that its actually the end of the fight just as a submission is in BJJ because there is no KO and oftentimes will continue to go beserk after that not realizing they've actually just lost.

 

[Andrusz]

heavnly kaghan tearing snubnoze and aberudder a new one

Not really, none of what he has stated is convincing that TCMA were at some point superior to any MA we have today. It's just accounts from the 1920s and 30s; therefore it's just hearsay. There is no direct evidence for exactly how any of these fights looked or the techniques involved.

And regardless, they're antiquated and archaic by today's standards. Krav Maga has replaced any need for TCMA's apparent small-joint manipulation.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Not really, none of what he has stated is convincing that TCMA were at some point superior to any MA we have today. It's just accounts from the 1920s and 30s; therefore it's just hearsay. There is no direct evidence for exactly how any of these fights looked or the techniques involved.

No it isn't. Hearsay is unreliable sources that cannot be mutually corroborated. We have actual mutually corroborating sources from both the Chinese and Japanese side.It is a reliable historical source and hence isn't a hearsay. No one here seem to understand how historical citatation works and would denounce them simply because there is no videos, so I wouldn't even waste my time digging out the detailed reference again unless I have a word beforehand that you guys will accept the source as legit once its cited in full bibliographical format. If not, I just can't bother to spend time doing it.

The techniques are actually described in detail. Sawai failed to hold onto Wang Xiangzhai and was thrown out each time.

And regardless, they're antiquated and archaic by today's standards. Krav Maga has replaced any need for TCMA's apparent small-joint manipulation.

Not this twaddling again.
Early 20th century Judo is not archaic by today's standards, it is Olympic judo which is watered down. TCMA does not focus on small-joint manipulation, honestly, train the damn style before you pretend you know what you are talking about.

 

[Andrusz]

Huh? You're splitting hairs at this point, which is kind of odd because I was more or less in agreement with you about relevance of grip fighting and how some movements won't work with mma gloves or be relevant to mma.


In any case fabric of those those black uniforms look like they could be grabbed much like a gi.

It's when you said you've seen it in OTHER martial arts that he had an issue.

Let's just cut straight to the chase here, he's defending China's honour. That's what the crux of this argument is about.