The official thread of Yi Long - questions

So we have to go back nearly 100 years to prove the efficacy of TCMA? Aren't there still thousands of practitioners today?

Sorry if I'm coming across negative here, I've just been exposed to too many Kung Fu guys in my life who live in a fantasy land that think they are invincible with zero contact training. The whole "let me demonstrate on you" bullshit that only works when the partner is allowing it to work.
 
Maybe you mean competitor? To be honest in my experience the classes aimed at middle class hobbyists that aren't interested in competing have the complicated wrist locks and low percentage yet highly dangerous moves. look at Aikido for example. or some of the self defense curriculum for gracie jui jitsu.
Lets not generalize all traditional MA as one.The context that Aikido evolved in is very different from the context that most styles of traditional Chinese MA evolved in. TKD was mostly a sport since it was created and should be compared to boxing and MT, not to traditional martial arts. When MMA speaks of "traditional art", it is speaking from the standpoint of when these arts are introduced to the US audience, not a reflection at how old they actually are and how they are formed.
 
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So we have to go back nearly 100 years to prove the efficacy of TCMA? Aren't there still thousands of practitioners today?

Sorry if I'm coming across negative here, I've just been exposed to too many Kung Fu guys in my life who live in a fantasy land that think they are invincible with zero contact training. The whole "let me demonstrate on you" bullshit that only works when the partner is allowing it to work.

Your experiences are entirely valid and most "masters" today often just claim whatever they want to and there are no authority to verify it because there are no longer Leitai matches and unlike BJJ, there isn't as organized of a bureaucrat for TCMA to give out an objective belt system to gauge actual levels. However, high level practitioners do exist in Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, and a few in Taiwan; you just have to know enough about TCMA to tell for yourself. The western world's average KF practitioner might actually be slightly better than the average KF practitioner in Asia now because of the relative recent lack of love for MA there. However, at the highest level, it is the opposite. The best KF masters in the western world now are probably low level advanced at best, or something akin to a high level purple/low level brown belt in BJJ. Hong Kong probably has the best TCMA master in the world period.

Also, "full contact" is a more of a striking sport oriented mentality. As I've said before, most forms of TCMA are based on limb control and set ups before they strike. Gaining superior position is more important than how well you can strike. Saying KF masters has no full contact training is like saying BJJ has no full contact sparring, whatever that means. BJJ masters does not need to demonstrate the ability to strike or take strikes for one to tell that they are "high level". This is the best analogy I can give for KF sparring.
 
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So we have to go back nearly 100 years to prove the efficacy of TCMA? Aren't there still thousands of practitioners today?

Sorry if I'm coming across negative here, I've just been exposed to too many Kung Fu guys in my life who live in a fantasy land that think they are invincible with zero contact training. The whole "let me demonstrate on you" bullshit that only works when the partner is allowing it to work.
We don't have to go back 100 years. Shuaijiao contains all the throws of Judo and then some more. Toss a guy onto a concrete floor and he definitely won't be getting up. Shuaijiao is TCMA and is one of the oldest Chinese martial arts.
 
So we have to go back nearly 100 years to prove the efficacy of TCMA? Aren't there still thousands of practitioners today?

Sorry if I'm coming across negative here, I've just been exposed to too many Kung Fu guys in my life who live in a fantasy land that think they are invincible with zero contact training. The whole "let me demonstrate on you" bullshit that only works when the partner is allowing it to work.

Yeah this is my view too. I appreciate Heavenly Kaghan's posts and his knowledge but honestly i'm not going to be convinced until I see some actual footage. At least it would be a starting point but this conversation is a bit abstract.

The other problem is we keep using the broad term of 'kung fu' or 'tma' when there is a wide range of styles under that umbrella. Shuaijiao and sanda are very different to wing chun and hung gar.
 
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There are certainly evolution in sport fighting. The modern evolution are taking place based on the rules of the sport. For example, boxing punches are harder than traditional styles, but take away the gloves, and I suspect that boxing will be among the first "evolved style" to discard, because the naked hand cannot sustain that much punishment. Anyone with street fighting using boxing injures their hand in someways, its only a matter of how much and it WILL accumulate. Traditional CMA punches would not be practical with boxing gloves, but they certainly hit hard enough without gloves, and would have punch less injury for the hands, because of the structure of the punch and the way they tense up only at the moment of impact.



The ground game is not more preferable. TCMA has always been weak in ground fighting, but thats due to the circumstances the art was created in the first place. People will think twice about going to the ground if they have to worry about concealed knives or other objects, as well as other attackers.




You are still thinking through a totally different martial arts system and breaking moves down into individual components. All locks in BJJ can only be properly execute through correct positioning and control is the most important aspect of the game. In similar ways, you cannot just grab someone's wrist from the get go and try to lock it. There is an entire game of mid range trapping and limb control, TCMA is NOT striking nor grappling, thats the problem modern combat sport classification tries to impose. The dividing line in TCMA is vague. This is an example of the type of control that they are fighting to gain:




Tell me if this is grappling or striking and tell me which modern combat sport addresses these. And don't use MMA to say it doesn''t work. TCMA style wrist control fighting does not work with MMA gloves on, I've tried, and anyone can do it themselves.

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Looks like grip fighting common in judo bjj and wrestling.





A big part of judo is getting control of the opponent thorough superior grip while avoiding or removing his grips. Same is true for usa folk wrestling, BJJ etc
 
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Looks like grip fighting common in judo bjj and wrestling.





A big part of judo is getting control of the opponent thorough superior grip while avoiding or removing his grips. Same is true for usa folk wrestling, BJJ etc

Are you serious? Please tell me where in the video I provided was anyone's hands ever been gripped for more than a split moment? I Liq sticky hands is not a type of grip fighting whatsoever, it is not based on grabbing. The palms are open and loose the majority of the time when fighting for control and the goal is to keep top position over your opponent's wrist and elbow. Judo is fighting for superior gripping positions, not top limb position and has a completely different objective and game. I suggest you find a I Liq school somewhere and just get feel of the sticky hands and see how its an entire different kind of fighting from any of the grappling sports that you are accustomed to. I have trained about half a year in I Liq, over 3 years of BJJ and 2 years of Judo, they are totally different systems, and I can easily keep grappler's from grabbing my wrist with I liq sticky hands unless I do Gi sparring, then its a whole different game.
 
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Huh? You're splitting hairs at this point, which is kind of odd because I was more or less in agreement with you about relevance of grip fighting and how some movements won't work with mma gloves or be relevant to mma.


In any case fabric of those those black uniforms look like they could be grabbed much like a gi.
 
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Huh? You're splitting hairs at this point, which is kind of odd because I was more or less in agreement with you about relevance of grip fighting and how some movements won't work with mma gloves or be relevant to mma.


In any case fabric of those those black uniforms look like they could be grabbed much like a gi.

I'm not splitting hairs. And its really easy to tell the difference if you actually experienced it yourself. The grip fighting in Judo is a completely different game from the wrist position fighting in TCMA. Training in one will not automatically translate into the other (although they can help adding additional dimensions to the game not seen before in that game) The uniforms in I Liq is not a type of Gi and they are not used in sparring. Again, look carefully at the video I provided. The difference is drastic:
1) I Liq does not use the Gi, Judo grip fighting is mostly about grabbing the Gi.
2) I Liq does not fight for better grips, they fight for better hand positioning (typically top control) over the opponent's limbs, usually wrist area. During this position fighting, the palm is open and fluid in motion, not in a closed grip position, and the hands does not close for a grip except for split moments; opponents are generally thrown off position through pushing and open palmed maneuvres, not through closed grip tuggings, whereas in Gi grappling arts, your hands are in close grip position for the majority of the fight often mixed with hard tugging.

3) I Liq typically fights in mid range at short punching distance, to gain limb control, whereas grappling arts tends to be closer, usually in elbow range or in grappling distance (no space in between).

4) The set ups and forms are completely different.
 
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I'm not splitting hairs.

2) I Liq does not fight for better grips, they fight for better hand positioning (typically top control) over the opponent's limbs, usually wrist area.

3) I Liq typically fights in mid range at short punching distance, to gain limb control, whereas grappling arts tends to be closer, usually in elbow range or in grappling distance (no space in between).
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There isn't much difference between the phrase "fighting for a better grip" and "fighting for better hand position". A lot of Judo takes place at short punching range to and wrist control is important as well. You're arguing semantics. Sure the gi game is different than no gi game but I referenced wrestling as well.

A lot of sambo throws have different setups and variations than their judo counterparts yet samboists tend to avoid pedantry and look at what they do as similar to judo.
 
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I would bet money these so called traditional martial arts masters couldn't beat a women after she does tae bo for 6 months. This shit is nothing but some school boy movie fantasy. There are cameras everywhere and there would at least be video of some guy using this shit in self defense on the street while being robbed or defending some helpless person. There are videos of every thing you can image except these traditional martial arts. I mean there are guys doing flying side kicks to take out people on motorcycles but i have never seen anything kaghan talks about work in any real situation even thou there are thousands of security camera videos of crazy shit happening in china uploaded every week
 
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iMy problem is with how pedantic advocates of these rare and old martial arts are in discussions and how they don't seem to realize that if something more or less died out / was replaced by a another sport or similar activity as a living practice there was probably a good reason for that.



For example it sounds like Lai Tai fighting died out because the rules did not ensure participants safety and there wasn't financial incentive to do it. It sounds like it was replaced by sanda or Shuaijiao which had less people getting injured.

They also inevitably don't compete. If your little known tactic or martial art is legit you should be able to do it in some sort of tournament or sparring. Leg entanglements and wrist locks are good example of this, for a while they were seen as gimmicks but people starting using them to win tournaments . Same can be said for Machida, he made his karate work in MMA.

Ultimately I get the sense that a lot of these people are frustrated their martial art isn't as badass as they thought it was and they are frustrated in their training. My thinking is why not adapt your martial art to what you think it should be ?
 
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I would bet money these so called traditional martial arts masters couldn't beat a women after she does tae bo for 6 months. This shit is nothing but some school boy movie fantasy. There are cameras everywhere and there would at least be video of some guy using this shit in self defense on the street while being robbed or defending some helpless person. There are videos of every thing you can image except these traditional martial arts. I mean there are guys doing flying side kicks to take out people on motorcycles but i have never seen anything kaghan talks about work in any real situation even thou there are thousands of security camera videos of crazy shit happening in china uploaded every week

damn that shit was crazy
 
There isn't much difference between the phrase "fighting for a better grip" and "fighting for better hand position". A lot of Judo takes place at short punching range to and wrist control is important as well. You're arguing semantics. Sure the gi game is different than no gi game but I referenced wrestling as well.

A lot of sambo throws have different setups and variations than their judo counterparts yet samboists tend to avoid pedantry and look at what they do as similar to judo.
Look, unlike you, I've actually done both, and I'm telling you that they are not the same. Your notion of "similarity" is very simplistic; just because an art has a few moves that look similar does not mean they are even close to similar styles. I'm not going to argue semantics with you. The point is that I Liq sticky hands is a completely different game from Judo grip fighting and thats that. They are nothing alike in their fighting tactics; try it for yourself. I did not say Judo does not have moves that take place at longer range, thats a strawman and a meaningless argument; most Judo grip fighting is done at closer range than I Liq, thats the point. And for the third time, I Liq is not fighting for grip control, you don't close your palms for positional fighting ever. The wrist control is not based on grabbing the sleeves or even their wrist, its based on using your open palm and fingers (not grabbing) to freely maintain top position over their wrist. Their hands are not trapped at one location like sleeve grabbing, the hands are still free to move out, because they are not being grabbed, but they will leave openings to their body an face when they do. Wrestling is totally different, there are little focus on wrist control, most of the grappling are to close in. Over 80 percent of I Liq is wrist fighting an closing into grappling range makes up a very small portion of the tactics, and when they are done, its done at a split instance, I have not seen grappling range fighting in the art at all.
 
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I would bet money these so called traditional martial arts masters couldn't beat a women after she does tae bo for 6 months. This shit is nothing but some school boy movie fantasy. There are cameras everywhere and there would at least be video of some guy using this shit in self defense on the street while being robbed or defending some helpless person. There are videos of every thing you can image except these traditional martial arts. I mean there are guys doing flying side kicks to take out people on motorcycles but i have never seen anything kaghan talks about work in any real situation even thou there are thousands of security camera videos of crazy shit happening in china uploaded every week

Facepalm.
The shit you showed is certainly movie fantasy, not TCMA. People don't do flying sidekicks in TCMA any more than in MMA. It's peformance wushu nonsense which does. And don't show anything from mainland China please, high level TCMA is dead there. No one in the PRC knows how to correctly apply the forms; I've seen these TCMA "masters“ from China talking to real TCMA talents from Hong Kong, saying that forms are useless and real fighting is like Sanda, which just confirmed that they have no idea how to apply TCMA at all. The United States has a far higher TCMA talent than China right now, and that's saying a lot.
 
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iMy problem is with how pedantic advocates of these rare and old martial arts are in discussions and how they don't seem to realize that if something more or less died out / was replaced by a another sport or similar activity as a living practice there was probably a good reason for that.

Yes, there is a very good reason for that. It's called stronger legal enforcement. Under such a scenario, fighting can only take place as sport competitions. Also, TCMA has not died out, its just that people who knows what they are doing today are far more rare, but they do exist; and mostly in Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore.

For example it sounds like Lai Tai fighting died out because the rules did not ensure participants safety and there wasn't financial incentive to do it. It sounds like it was replaced by sanda or Shuaijiao which had less people getting injured.

They also inevitably don't compete. If your little known tactic or martial art is legit you should be able to do it in some sort of tournament or sparring. Leg entanglements and wrist locks are good example of this, for a while they were seen as gimmicks but people starting using them to win tournaments . Same can be said for Machida, he made his karate work in MMA.

Ultimately I get the sense that a lot of these people are frustrated their martial art isn't as badass as they thought it was and they are frustrated in their training. My thinking is why not adapt your martial art to what you think it should be ?

Kickboxing style sanda and Shuaijiao was already around in the ROC; they did not become more popular then nor do we even see such a trend (especially the former). The Japanese Judokas that I cited were beaten not just by Shuaijiao practitioners, but by styles such as Mizong (used by Huo Yuanjia) and Yiquan (used by Wang Xiangzhai). And for your information, even the founder of sport Shuaijiao, Chang Dongsheng, practiced TCMA and utilized lots of its principles in combat shuaijiao; modern sport shuaijiao is a watered down version of that.
Honestly, few people I've seen, even most BS TCMA schools, even has a clue how high level TCMA works or is correctly applied. They just think whatever the BS schools feed them is actual TCMA or that true TCMA will look like Sanda when its applied; its not.
 
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Facepalm.
The shit you showed is certainly movie fantasy, not TCMA. People don't do flying sidekicks in TCMA any more than in MMA. It's peformance wushu nonsense which does. And don't show anything from mainland China please, high level TCMA is dead there. No one in the PRC knows how to correctly apply the forms; I've seen these TCMA "masters“ from China talking to real TCMA talents from Hong Kong, saying that forms are useless and real fighting is like Sanda, which just confirmed that they have no idea how to apply TCMA at all. The United States has a far higher TCMA talent than China right now, and that's saying a lot.
and yet this pure nonsense has video proof of it actually working unlike every single thing you have claimed. If traditional martial arts were ever effective they died out a couple hundred years ago. The so called "masters" today do not have anyone to spar with and without that they can never achieve a high level. Doing forms is like watching instructional videos they can help some but only when you have the experience of hard sparring with a high level person can you begin to truly understand the complexity of the movement.

I also love how you act like they can just meet in the gym and find out if their moves work. Im sure there are tons of sanda guys who will gladly take off the gloves if one of these guys wants to walk into their gym and challenge one of them. There are hundreds of video of guys making challenges to pro fighters in china and just getting there ass whopped like this guy
 
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I'm taking a bare handed Boxer in a street fight against that sticky hands nonsense any day of the week. It's a different game when when his wrists are up by his face and only coming straight out quickly to pummel your face.

And please save me the massive response. Your posts are as convoluted as the CTMA that you're trying to defend.
 
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