The official thread of Yi Long - questions | Page 8

Discussion in 'Muay Thai and Kickboxing' started by Broadcast, Jan 19, 2017.

  1. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Now I'm not sure what we are arguing about, since it seems like you agree striking sparring full contact without gloves is a bad idea to do regularly. That has been more or less my point the whole time.

    The way I see see it gloves are an asset not a liability for striking based martial arts.
     
    #141
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  2. spinningshiz Yellow Belt

    spinningshiz
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    Man, the best videos on the efficacy of TCMA is from Shuaijiao which is descended from Central Asian wrestling. There is no need to prove its efficacy beyond that.
     
    #142
  3. Shadess Brown Belt

    Shadess
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    You guys are ruining a thread on Yi Long. Well done.
     
    #143
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  4. heavenly kaghan Blue Belt

    heavenly kaghan
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    You still have not defined what efficiency is to me. I just showed you a video, are you gonna accept its efficient or are you just gonna denounce it because it isn't full contact sparring?
     
    #144
  5. heavenly kaghan Blue Belt

    heavenly kaghan
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    The argument between us was when you stated that Judo gripping was the same as I Liq sticky hands, thats it. Also TCMA is NOT conventionally KB speaking a striking based MA, as you can see from the video I provided, striking is only done under the context that you properly control their limbs. It's like Thai clinching, which has an element of "grappling" in it. This distinction of striking and grappling is a modern Japo-western combat sport classification, they don't exist in TMA because the lines between the two are very blurry.
     
    #145
  6. heavenly kaghan Blue Belt

    heavenly kaghan
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    That's because it incorporated boxing into the style, not because these techniques already exist and was adapted to kickboxing, that's the point. The fact that you admit there is no jab cross hook combo in the katas mean that it is not originally from MB. Also, I am very wary of all claims of TMA nowadays who train with boxing gloves on as truly being original. Good chances are, they have being mixing it up and the style don't look at all traditional. The same happens with Karate and some Kung Fu schools. They use Sanda primarily mixed with some elementary self defense techniques and tries to pass it as traditional without any of the higher understanding of the forms and setups.
    What you are saying has already been done in TCMA, its called Sanda. The problem is that this so called adaption basically changed the entire style to suit the ruleset and the punching techniques in Sanda (and MT for that matter) are now just boxing, not TMA, as I already told you.
    The result is that Sanda no longer looks anything like TCMA. Some might call Sanda "TCMA adapted to combat sport", but I see the ruleset affecting the style more than the tradition and the truth is that Sanda looks more like kickboxing with shuaijiao than it is to TCMA and I see the same with MT compared to the far more complex MB.
     
    #146
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  7. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Sure and I find that the Thai clinch and throws work with the gloves. I can use punches to set up a clinch takedown. without hurting my hand or hurting my training partner too bad and I can do so in a sparring context. I like sparring.

    I prefer that than the type of training depicted in the vids you posted. Maybe I change my mind when I'm 50 and sparring isn't possible.
     
    #147
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  8. Snubnoze707 High Level

    Snubnoze707
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    No, demonstrations are unacceptable for obvious reasons. That's actually my biggest gripe about TCMA, choreographed demonstrations. #FakeFights

    And that's efficacy, not efficiency.
     
    #148
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  9. AbeRudder Green Belt

    AbeRudder
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    In before 3 paragraphs about how you're wrong and not one sparring or fight video.
     
    #149
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  10. SuperLuigi Black Belt

    SuperLuigi
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    I wouldn't mind a demonstration if the guys were actually going a solid 70% bad intentions. Typically you don't see that though.
     
    #150
  11. AbeRudder Green Belt

    AbeRudder
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    A lot of those moves are allowed under mma rules or even in some type of safe sparring format. The 'our art is for real fighting not sport' excuse that tma practitioners use always feels like a cop out to me. Especially baffling when it comes from Wing Chung guys.
     
    #151
  12. AbeRudder Green Belt

    AbeRudder
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    A sparring video would be good. Then you can actually see someone trying the moves out on a resisting opponent not just someone standing there letting them execute the movements.
     
    #152
  13. SuperLuigi Black Belt

    SuperLuigi
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    I don't really see it as CMA guys acting like some kind of badass elitists. CMA guys know they would get smashed in an MMA fight and they humbly accept that. I have never seen HK or others say that an MMA guy wouldn't stand a chance in a street fight, they simply say that in such an environment their art has things that actually are applicable. Also I should add, I know a guy who is a CMA purist who studied in the Shaolin temple, he recently got attacked by an angry farmer. He was able to fend off his attacker with finger jabs to the eyes. Of course we already know this works because we have seen Jones use it in a modified form in MMA.
     
    #153
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  14. AbeRudder Green Belt

    AbeRudder
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    Yeah some people are a bit more realistic but I've heard this stuff ad nauseam from tma guys on forums for years, I used to believe it myself when I trained in wing chun as a teenager. The individual techniques are less of an issue than the way they are trained and put together. I have no doubt that someone like jon jones (or any decent mma fighter) could implement stuff like eye pokes or nut kicks in a fight scenario way more effectively than a tma guy despite never actually training those techniques specifically.
     
    #154
  15. AbeRudder Green Belt

    AbeRudder
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    Here are some examples of kung fu in an 'alive' setting i found

    Bastardised wing chung



    Tai Chi wrestling with kicks allowed - there are a lot of vids from this promotion out there









    This was an old thread i used to go through back in the day, lots of dead links though http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57427
     
    #155
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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  16. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    That looks like a lot of fun, I would totally participate in that tournament.
     
    #156
  17. heavenly kaghan Blue Belt

    heavenly kaghan
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    I've already explained the obstacles that gloves present for trappings, which is over half of what TCMA is about. You simply haven't trained it or tried the moves to understand what I'm talking about.

    Also, all the video you are showing are just mainland Chinese "masters" who has not even grasped the fundamentals of TCMA, and has no clue how forms work. Most of the TCMA "masters" in china are just using basic Sanshou, I trained both TCMA and sanda, I can tell these styles from a mile away, and they are not how TCMA is suppose to look like. Taichi from the mainland is also completely combat deprived, it has degenerated into a game of push hands and lost most of its combat element. Iliq guys from Malaysia dominate taichi fighters from mainland China whenever they spar. Understanding forms in TCMA only makes you intermediate, and sadly, most TMA fighters today, not just in China, have not even grasped those. Turning to sport fighting due to stronger legal enforcement and monetary gains are similar everywhere.

    The video I showed to you all comes from one of the best TCMA master in the world in HK.
    I personally know people connected to the guy in that demo video I showed you. I've seen somewhat hard sparring and have tried asking for videos. However, and I kid you not, there is still a very conservative philosophy in TCMA where the teacher would not allow the distribution of such videos and I simply failed to get them every time I ask. The reason given was that videos of sparing would only interest those who looks for quick gains and not stay to learn the more complex level which requires boring body exercises and form practices in which their uses are not immediately evident. TCMA talent is very rare nowadays and I simply cannot find anything beyond demos at this point. If people don't take that as enough of a "proof" then whatever; my original point was simply that the moves in TCMA has its own logic, restricted by MMA rules, and is entirely different from sport fighting.

    Don't follow the generic TMA keyboard warriors, they make me facepalm whenever I speak to them. Unlike them, I know people who are authorities in TCMA.
    I assume you trained in the US. Sorry to break this to you, but WC in America is intermediate at best, a lot of the complex forms are not even taught.I also assume your teacher does not teach students and explain how the form is put together; becausem most KF (or TMA in general) schools I've came across do not understand this.
     
    #157
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  18. Snubnoze707 High Level

    Snubnoze707
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    Seems like NOBODY has a clue on TCMA even the masters in China and every martial arts fan out there, except you of course, but yet you still can't give us anything to clue us in on except overly written posts. Go figure...
     
    #158
  19. Maroli Brown Belt

    Maroli
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    The videos exist, it's just that the masters want no-one to know about the efficacy of the art. So you know, it'll continue dying.
     
    #159
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  20. heavenly kaghan Blue Belt

    heavenly kaghan
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    No, don't confuse your circle with the entire martial arts community. People HERE, especially you, don't have a clue. The TCMA community has plenty of clues and its common knowledge among such circles that mainland Chinese TCMA is a joke. You speak a lot for someone who has no experience or even care about the subject, what can I say other than suggest you to be quiet about a subject you know yourself that you are clueless in.


    This coming from someone who has not provided a shred of evidence himself, who can't even produce written posts with value.
    I gave you plenty to clue on, with demos and solid historical evidence, you are just too simple minded to appreciate such evidence and too stubborn on hard sparring videos being the only type of acceptable clue to you.

    Also, I want to clear up some misleading notion you seem to hold here. There are plenty of hard sparring videos of Kungfu fighters online, youtube it yourself, what I said I cannot find is high level sparring involving some power having fighters who actually understands the forms.
    Again, high level TCMA practitioners is not common, just because there are no hard sparrings of high level on youtube does not mean there are none in real life and I've seen such sparrings in their schools in Hong Kong. It's not like they are purposely keeping it a secret as Maroli thinks, they just don't want to upload the sparring for reasons even I find silly, but anyone who wants to see can just walk into their school, the name is on the demo video.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017

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