Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Muay Thai and Kickboxing' started by Broadcast, Jan 19, 2017.
You're obsessed with TCMA and you can't even find any video what makes you think I can?
First, I'm not obsessed with TCMA, I practiced Sanda longer. I am just correcting your basic errors which is so far off the page its embarrassing. As simple as that.
Also, I don't think you understood my demand, so read my lips. I want you to show me videos of TCMA guys losing in a street fight or an "authentic" sparring since you said its common. If you can't provide that, stop making double standards, and you should also understand the absurdity of your demands for me to proof the opposite.
How is it absurd to ask for a video of someone proving the efficacy of TCMA?
I'm done. Im better off talking to a wall...
here's a TMA adapted to a modern context. start from 1:21. prior to that, it's just a student doing padwork but then he spars 50 year old kru preang, who like the purported TCMA masters that khagan is referring to, is actually one of less than 10 actual muay thai boran teachers left in Thailand. Based on the evidence you have shown so far vs this video, I'd put Kru Preang up against any of those grandmasters in a bare knuckle fight any day.
This was supposed to be a thread where we all put aside our differences to make fun of Yi Long
Are you incapable of understanding what a double standard is? If you want me to provide videos which you can't do when asked in return for the opposite, then your demand is absurd because such videos are not readily produce able. You might feel better talking to a wall, because your intellect honestly have not advanced beyond that of a wall.
That's not TMA, thats just boxing. The so called adapting to modern context isn't adapting, its completely replacing the old punching style with sloppy boxing; and the same is happening in sanda and kickboxing karate because the thing is, any style that uses boxing gloves eventually evolves their punching into boxing because thats the best style for such gloves.
People who have no clue about other styles really needs to shut the hell up. I'm sure people the say the same about BJJ before Gracie steam rolled them in the first UFC.
The fact that no footage exists is evidence that its efficacy doesn't exist. In 3 seconds I can provide video proving the functionality of various other martial arts styles. You can't produce one in weeks. Why? Because it's all smoke and mirrors. Sorry you wasted your life training techniques that only work against people with the same fight style or people that don't know how to fight...
It's muay chaiya, fyi. They're just using hand techniques and it's pretty obvious they look completely different than boxers or kickboxers. Am I saying they'd win in a boxing match vs a boxer? No, I'm saying that it's still pretty obvious that you can adapt a TMA into a modern context with various degrees of success. Muay Boran was done with very minimal handwraps, so it was an open handed system and the fights were MMA style, with grappling. Just like everyone here is telling you, your rationalization of why there's ZERO evidence of real-world applicability is patently ridiculous. You can watch a Kyokushin match and see how that would be an effective style even if they don't allow punches to the face. You can look at a wrestling match and see how effective it would be even if they can't strike. You've yet to produce any kind of evidence, other than 100 year old newspapers, that the TCMA you're espousing could claim itself to be effective in a real combat scenario. I'm not even disputing that it COULD be effective, just that we have been presented with nothing to make us believe it is. And as you correctly said, there's more BS out there than there is truth so the default response is always skepticism.
What's kind of odd is that I get the sense that if Lei Tai fighting was still around or something like bare knuckle sanda was invented Heavenly kagahn probably wouldn't participate. Also despite talking about TCMA at length it sounds like he practices judo and BJJ more and is better at those.
Yes I do know how historical citation works, I studied history in University. It always takes with it a sense of reservation in regards to accuracy. But that's not the point being made here by you. The point you're attempting to make is very clear: that a long time ago practitioners of these pure form of TCMAs were better fighters than modern-day MMA practictioners. That the skills they had were on par with the training and techniques used by today's artists.
I'm sorry to break it to you, but they weren't. They weren't even close.
Then you should know that mutually affirming sources authenticates the account, but you don't.
I can care less about your opinion really, show actual evidence or don't break anything to me.
If you got the idea that TCMA were better fighters than modern MMA practitioners from my post, then you simply can't read, sorry to break it to you, but that was not my point. Maybe for you everything is a dick measuring contest, but this isn't the point of the debate.
Whether I participate has nothing to do with my points. Address them or stop making strawmans.
I have trained 5 years in Sanda and boxing and these are my area. I've trained about as much Judo as TCMA. However, I have experienced high level TCMA before from sparring and knows its uses. I won't make blind predictions that I will win or lose, but its sheer idiocy to think you can just walk over them any day of the week.
No, it simply means the style has less talent pool nowadays. Similar things are happening with catch wrestling. This isn''t rocket science, people on this thread has no idea how to construct intellectual arguments.
Yet video footage of catch wrestling being effective is widely available...
Except the punches in the video are plain boxing jabs, cross and hook combos and anyone who knows what a jab, cross and hooks looks like knows that it is boxing. Who are you trying to fool?
Except Muay Boran Katas looks nothing like what is shown in the video. What you are showing is just boxing, which you want to present as traditional MA. Just because the person might know some traditional MB does not mean he is using it.
You need to be a bit more precise what you mean by real world applicability. Snubnooze is asking me for full contact sparring or street versions of how TCMA works. If you even have a rudimentary idea of how TCMA works, you should know that full contact sparring in TCMA often results in broken wrists or hands, as that is how combat in the style unfolds and what much of the moves are aiming at. If you are looking for street application, good luck video taping one when the talent pool of TCMA is so low.
Kyokushin is a modern sport which is specifically designed for full contact sparring. TCMA is not. Please don't think they are the same thing.
First, you don't appear to understand how the burden of proof works. In contrast to what people who makes strawmans in this thread claims, I did not claim TCMA is better than modern MMA, so don't ask me to prove something I never claimed. Rather it is the opposite, people here claims TCMA is worthless against modern combat sport, so the burden of proof is on the side which made that claim and so far I've only seen third grade level mockery but no evidence.
I said TCMA has its own internal logic and techniques different from modern combat sports and has had its own history of victory and I already provided these evidence. Sadly, the same cannot be said for you or the others. The evidence is not just self proclamation, as it is backed by an affirming account from Kenichi Sawai who lost. It is others who then started the clowning and asked me to prove TCMA against modern combat sports, when I did not say the former will annihilate the later. It is not my intention in proving what styles can win, nor do I need to do that for you. High level TCMA is not common today, and it is absurd to ask me to provide street fight videos when you can't even do the same for common combat sports like Judo or MT on the street. You can believe what you want to believe, but I only expect a modicum of the same standard from the other end so people can shut up about things they have no clue in and quit claiming things that has no evidence one way or another.
Define effective. You asked me for videos of
1) winning a full contact sparring match with no rules
2) street fighting
Show me the video of catch wrestling doing the above or stop asking me to do the same for TCMA.
Also, for those who asked me, here is a video of how TCMA techniques should be applied in real fights for people who are actually curious about it more than those obsessed about style vs style debates:
Note that this is a demo, not a real sparring scenario so people appear more static and the moves flow better (the people have specifically avoided uploading videos of fighting for all types of reasons). Note that there are a lot of twisting involved in the Qinna and a full contact version WILL result in teared limbs or broken wrist and that is why full contact sparring is not standard for TCMA.
Now waiting for incoming self proclaimed experts who say these won't work without even understanding the setups and application ideas behind the moves.
When the hell did I ask for that?
I've asked repeatedly and simply "Show me a video proving the efficacy of TCMA".
It can be a sparring match for all I care at this point...
Muay Boran is full of present day boxing techniques, especially Muay Chaiya. They call the names differently-'piercing punch' for jab, 'swinging punch' for hook, etc, but they look practically identical to boxing punches. As far as Katas go in muay boran, they don't have them. they have 'master techniques' called 'mae mai' and secondary techniques called 'look mai', which are the pre-set finishing/flashier combos; they'll stitch a few of those together but they don't have 'katas'. So please don't tell me about what Muay Boran is because you know, having been born and raised in the country and having learned it...I have some idea. My point was that it could easily be adapted to a contemporary ruleset. You give these guys gloves and queensbury rules, they can apply their training. Even though they train empty handed generally speaking, and use kicks and throws and grappling quite extensively in the traditional ruleset.