The official thread of Yi Long - questions

[heavenly kaghan]

God would you stop with the stupid honor BS. It really isn't that complicated, he was wrong when he said sticky hands is similar to Judo gripping, and its as simple as that.
Yi Liq sticky hands are not at all similar to Judo grip fighting and I challenge anyone who knows Judo to try out a single Yi Liq lesson to experience sticky hands first hand to prove me wrong.
I know for a fact that I'm right and no amount of shit talking is going to change that.

The problem with people here is that they are talking about things they have no experience or the slightest clue in and pretend to analyze as if they know what they are talking about. I long come to realize the fact that people here would not be able to tell evidence or logical fallacies when there is one. Why just look at the hypocrisy of all those claiming that there is no prove for TCMA winning, while using their "proof" of sub-par fighters who has no idea what they are doing getting dominated in the ring as "proof" of their own. They cannot even tell that their own evidence refutes the authenticity of the proof itself. Life is too short for this BS.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Ya, life is too short for this BS. Like reading all of these book reports you keep writing that doesn't give us any evidence of the efficacy of TCMA. You just keep telling us nobody has experience in it or that their are no true masters blah blah blah. I think their is reasoning for that.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Just because you do not understand historical citation as proper sources does not mean it isn't.
I have observed that this forum pretty much comes down to this:

1) Reasons why certain things are the way they are is irrelevant, what matters are simple current videos.

2) Historical context do not matter, a style that has a low talent pool today implies that the style does not work ever in history and that the moves are all bogus.

3) If someone actually explains how a traditional style work, because they actually know about the subject, they are a spokesmen for that style and all the evidence are not evidence and all their reasons are just excuses.

My sources at least shows relevant fighters; sadly the same cannot be said of any of the so called "proof" all of the evidence garnered so far to proof the opposite. All I've seen are fighters who have demonstrated no more than a beginner's sloppy level in TCMA training; guys who have no idea how to apply basic moves, let along entire forms, and you are already treating it as some kind of definitive proof. You don't even know what the terms you are using in TCMA mean; the fact that he confused sticky hands with Judo gripping speaks volumes already. Enough is enough. Either use legitimate sources, study the style or stop talking about the subject.

The argument you guys are reciting aren't new or amusing, it is pretty much the old cliche: whatever isn't found in ring sports does not work. Sorry, but real life doesn't work like that.

 

[Snubnoze707]

It's not in us to prove CTMA inneffective it's on you to prove that it is. Newspaper articles from the 1920s is not sufficient evidence. It's 2017.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

I know you cannot really comprehend anything remotedly complicated, but try to understand that your argument is actually a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

You don't know how the burden of proof works do you? You are the one who made the claim, so you provide the proof. I am not the one who is claiming which style is superior, you are. I see different moves from different styles having their uses, and there are moves in TCMA that are not found in any of the popular common sports, and their application is hindered by the ruleset of these sports; thats it. Ring sport is not a proof. It is a sport with a set rule; no I do not mean KF is too deadly for the sport nonsense. I assume you have at least the common sense to realize that different styles work differently in different sports.

 

[Thycidides]

I have sparred plenty in TCMA without gloves as that is how its done. I talked about sports where it isn't allowed because you are the one who brought it up to denounce TCMA.


I've already answered just that in a post you responded to. Read it. I said I could use sticky hands to prevent my hands and wrists from getting grabbed in grappling matches without gi. However, you asked why this doesn't allow a person knowing sticky hands to win the said grappling matches. I pointed out to you that grappling is a different sport from sticky hands, and people do not just grab wrists and hands, they also grab your legs, hips, or gi. That is why a person with sticky hands cannot just walk in and dominate a grappling match. Will it help? Yes. Is learning sticky hands going to do more for someone than grappling itself? No, for the same reason training in MMA will not make you better at BJJ competition against someone training specifically for BJJ.
.

Why don't you post some videos of you sparring bare knuckle with strikes? You mentioned something called a dim mak earlier, I'd like to see you do that.

I know people that train at a MMA gym and they do well in BJJ tournaments, even beating people that do pure bjj. .In fact those MMA guys tend to have better leg locks and takedowns than many pure BJJ players.


To be honest you're doing more to denounce TCMA than I am by complaining about the lack of good teachers compared to other martial arts. You haven't really explained why you prefer TCMA to judo or BJJ either. What's the appeal?

why would you prefer to play sticky hands than do this?

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Why don't you post some videos of you sparring bare knuckle with strikes? You mentioned something called a dim mak earlier, I'd like to see you do that.

You're kind of all over the place here, I know people that train at a MMA gym and they do well in BJJ tournaments, even beating people that do pure bjj. . Also i'v e seen people with more wrestling experience than BJJ win against pure bjj guys in tournaments too. Brock Lensar and Ronda Rousey both dominated in MMA despite having limited cross training.

To be honest you're doing more to denounce TCMA than I am by complaining about the lack of good teachers.

In any case here's another example of grip fighting

First, I did not say I used Dim mak earlier. I am merely explaining what that move is to Snubnooze cause he hasn't gotten a clue.
Second, I am not high level in TCMA, and I am not a spokesmen for the style, but I know enough to tell who is a beginner and who is an expert; I am merely explaining why people's arguments using sport rulesets are flawed and revealing the fallacy of the "proves" used against it, so you guys needs to chill out.
Third, you are off topic. Our conversation started when you claimed sticky hands was similar to Judo grip fighting, its not, and thats a fact you will know once actually start learning the damn style.

I have no interest in a dick measuring contest between different styles, and if that is what you guys are after, I'm done.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I know you cannot really comprehend anything remotedly complicated, but try to understand that your argument is actually a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

You don't know how the burden of proof works do you? You are the one who made the claim, so you provide the proof. I am not the one who is claiming which style is superior, you are. I see different moves from different styles having their uses, and there are moves in TCMA that are not found in any of the popular common sports, and their application is hindered by the ruleset of these sports; thats it. Ring sport is not a proof. It is a sport with a set rule; no I do not mean KF is too deadly for the sport nonsense. I assume you have at least the common sense to realize that different styles work differently in different sports.

Actually I hadn't made the claim that it didn't work, the whole thread is me asking you for evidence that it does work. I never mentioned any other styles or claimed their superiority. Just show me a video... ANYTHING. SOMETHING...

 

[Thycidides]

First, I did not say I used Dim mak earlier. I am merely explaining what that move is to Snubnooze cause he hasn't gotten a clue.
Second, I am not high level in TCMA, and I am not a spokesmen for the style, but I know enough to tell who is a beginner and who is an expert; I am merely explaining why people's arguments using sport rulesets are flawed and revealing the fallacy of the "proves" used against it, so you guys needs to chill out.
Third, you are off topic. Our conversation started when you claimed sticky hands was similar to Judo grip fighting, its not, and thats a fact you will know once actually start learning the damn style.

I have no interest in a dick measuring contest between different styles, and if that is what you guys are after, I'm done.

Ok Why would I want to learn TCMA ? What's the appeal? What do you like about TCMA that you don't like about judo or bjj or sanshou? Serious question.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Actually I hadn't made the claim that it didn't work, the whole thread is me asking you for evidence that it does work. I never mentioned any other styles or claimed their superiority. Just show me a video... ANYTHING. SOMETHING...

No thats why you are making sniding remarks about TCMA throughout this thread. And ignoring comments like this one below:

I'm taking a bare handed Boxer in a street fight against that sticky hands nonsense any day of the week. It's a different game when when his wrists are up by his face and only coming straight out quickly to pummel your face.

And please save me the massive response. Your posts are as convoluted as the CTMA that you're trying to defend.

Who are you trying to fool? You are clearly arguing that TCMA does not work, based on flawed evidence.

I already told you that the amount of people who are actually high level in TCMA today are very rare and I have not found any of these schools having videos of real sparring or street fighting. But absence of videos does not mean absence of any evidence. I have already presented you with earlier fight accounts with mutually corroborating evidence, if that is not good enough for you then tough. This conversation wasn't even about whether TCMA works, its about the flawed notions that people hold about it and me correcting these facts.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Ok Why would I want to learn TCMA ? What's the appeal? What do you like about TCMA that you don't like about judo or bjj or sanshou? Serious question.

There are a lot of TCMA styles, and I can only speak of the few I have seen.
Again, it is just a completely different style with a different fight concept that is very complex. Having a completely different fighting style would always catch your opponent off guard. TCMA is about hand trapping, and limb control with a focus on mid range fighting, something not found in any of the combat sports I've seen. The power is generated through rooting to the ground more than rotation.
However, if you really want to learn TCMA, I again suggest HK, Malaysia or Singapore. If you have to start in the US, then I suggest trying I liq under the Chin family first, it has flaws (such as lack of striking), but it has relatively less BS and it is an interesting style where you can find an entire new dimension to fighting you have never seen before. Decide for yourself whether you want to continue.

 

[Thycidides]

There are a lot of TCMA styles, and I can only speak of the few I have seen.
Again, it is just a completely different style with a different fight concept that is very complex. .

I see. What TCMA style was common 20's and 30's and related to Lei Tai fights?

 

[OngBakBoy]

i'm not touching that with a 20 feet pole

 

[redeyeguy]

Yi Long is an entertaining fighter to watch. The way he absorbs all sorts of heavy strikes and keeps on blasting back; the shape of his head; the mystique behind his monk background - the kickboxing world needs a person like him. However, I don't think he's top caliber good. Made for TV kind of fighter IMO.

 

[Snubnoze707]

No thats why you are making sniding remarks about TCMA throughout this thread. And ignoring comments like this one below:


Who are you trying to fool? You are clearly arguing that TCMA does not work, based on flawed evidence.

I already told you that the amount of people who are actually high level in TCMA today are very rare and I have not found any of these schools having videos of real sparring or street fighting. But absence of videos does not mean absence of any evidence. I have already presented you with earlier fight accounts with mutually corroborating evidence, if that is not good enough for you then tough. This conversation wasn't even about whether TCMA works, its about the flawed notions that people hold about it and me correcting these facts.

We can argue about who the burden of proof is on but that is a moot point.

You've provided me these things:
- High level CTMA practitioners are rare
- There is no video footage of good CTMA
- There is evidence of CTMA having some wins over Judo practitioners in the 1920's

Got it. These are your exceptions to the rule when people have misconceptions of CTMA based on everything that they have seen and known about it. Rare high level practitioners to which no video exists of their training that use techniques that where used to beat Judo 100 years ago.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Good grief, why do you like to cherry pick lines so much? No, it really isnt, if you bothered to read at all what I wrote.

To give you a glimpse of how rare TCMA masters are, I have seen about 2-3 person in my life in HK, all from the same line of school, who can actually apply forms the way they are supposed to be applied, that is as a sequence for controlling the entire fight, even when I've visited dozens of schools, the rest could only break down forms into individual combinations and these people in America already call themselves masters; I've wrote about this for a living, I've done the research.

Would those individuals be comfortable demonstrating their craft on video? I'm not doubting you, just curious. Live action sticky hand attack would be cool to see.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Would those individuals be comfortable demonstrating their craft on video? I'm not doubting you, just curious. Live action sticky hand attack would be cool to see.

The camera would explode.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

We can argue about who the burden of proof is on but that is a moot point.

You've provided me these things:
- High level CTMA practitioners are rare
- There is no video footage of good CTMA
- There is evidence of CTMA having some wins over Judo practitioners in the 1920's

Got it. These are your exceptions to the rule when people have misconceptions of CTMA based on everything that they have seen and known about it. Rare high level practitioners to which no video exists of their training that use techniques that where used to beat Judo 100 years ago.

First, what is this so called everything people have seen and known about TCMA? They are nothing but stereotypes. I would like see such videos of such fights not under KB or MMA ruleset. Provide them or quit asking me to do the same and lets see if they are authentic, because there are also plenty of videos online of guys doing TCMA beating boxers yet people would just say these boxers have no idea what they are doing, and they might be right to an extent too, but that would apply even more to TCMA.

And while you are at it, I would also like to see the guy who claimed Krav Maga is better than TCMA to provide the video of such fights too, come on, the same standard should apply to everyone. If they can't deal with the double standard, then they should just shut the hell up about which style is useless.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Would those individuals be comfortable demonstrating their craft on video? I'm not doubting you, just curious. Live action sticky hand attack would be cool to see.

I already provided a video, it isn't complete combat (like BJJ without striking) but it should give you an idea what sticky hands look like.
Sticky hands is only the name given in some styles like I liq, they are different in other styles, but the goal is mostly similar, to control the limbs so they can open up for strikes or throws.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

I see. What TCMA style was common 20's and 30's and related to Lei Tai fights?

Everyone cross trained. Using only shuaijiao or kicking or punching styles alone would be suicide. I will only describe the top ten. In the first few national tournaments, the top ten were variations of northern long fist-like systems and Tongbei, with a couple of internal systems like Taichi and Xingyi thrown in from time to time. More Mantis styles started to appear in the later years. Long fist and Tongbei were usually at the top because more people practice them, and that would automatically lead to a greater talent pool.