Logically, Steroid Usage Has No Impact On GOAT Status

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Franc Mittelo, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. QcChopper

    QcChopper YAMMA-HA

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    Absolute BS, you can make a living robbing people, you get caught, too bad, you lose. The robber who robbed all his life and never got caught gets away with it, the guy who robbed once and got caught is labelled a criminal.

    Life is unfair.
     
  2. deltapapha

    deltapapha Brown Belt

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    so you do believe that GSP was juicing at some point during his belt defense streak.

    noted
     
  3. QcChopper

    QcChopper YAMMA-HA

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    Clown, come back when you have an argument.
     
  4. BowserJr

    BowserJr Black Belt

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    If a fighter uses any sort of supplement then they use PED.

    The "laws" and "rules" surrounding PED and supplements are arbitrarily handed out with no basis in anything so trying positive doesn't really mean shit

    Everyone takes something
     
  5. jeremyemilio

    jeremyemilio Silver Belt

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    Bonds was better.

    Pujols is better and has actually put up similar lifetime numbers over a much shorter career.

    At his best, Vlad was better (although he didn't have near the same longevity, and fizzled out suddenly).
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
  6. wompuscatwilly

    wompuscatwilly Purple Belt

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    Bonds was a HOF before he ever touched steroids. The steroids ruin his legacy though. Plus he had nowhere near the glove of Griffey.

    Same for Pujols, you have to factor in defense with the equation and Griffey was as good as it gets.

    Vlad was a better "hitter" with the way he slapped the bat, but again how many gold gloves do these guys have to go along with the gawdy offensive numbers Griffey had?
    If you're going to talk about longevity, Griffey would've passed Hank Aaron had his body not gave out in the early 2000's but he kept playing.

    I don't think anyone you mentioned even had 1 GG let alone 10, while winning MVPs, HR titles etc. he was pure excitement......and again, the sweetest swing baseball has ever seen.
     
  7. krelianx

    krelianx Silver Belt

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    The argument is not that Jones is worse than Paul Craig, but that his accomplishments and victories are questionable. How would Jones look clean, if he has been proven a cheat in 2/3 fights with enhanced testing?

    No one knows. So he can't be said to have earned his accolades fairly, in relation to other fighters who have done so, to the best of our knowledge.

    Do I think he would beat Paul Felder off steroids? Possibly. But I am much less sure about whether he would have beat, say, Gustafsson, or Cormier the first time around. Those were very close fights. Had he not won those fights, he would have never been in contention. The only fight under USADA where he didn't test positive he looked the worst he's ever looked.

    The same holds for Anderson Silva.

    It is not demotion but disqualification.
     
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  8. SuperNerd

    SuperNerd Off-Season Mode.

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    Maybe, but your argument is trash
     
  9. jeremyemilio

    jeremyemilio Silver Belt

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    Pujols has 2 GGs and 3 MVPs. He also has 2 HR titles to Jr's 4, along with 3 slugging titles to Griffey's 1 (which is the more impressive title, even if it isn't nearly as celebrated).

    Bonds has 8 GGs and 3 MVPs prior to 2000 (and another 4 MVPs after becoming Uberbonds).
     
  10. Scyther

    Scyther Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card Yellow Card Banned

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    Glad the dude lived. That had to be scary.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Rudeboyben84

    Rudeboyben84 Purple Belt

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    If a fighter has a NC for being on the juice it hurts his rankings because it's a fight he didn't win on his record. Apart from that it doesn't make a bit of differene.

    Really doesn't matter because GSP is GOAT no matter what you think about steroids.

    1. GSP
    2. Fedor
    3. Anderson
    4. Jones
    5. Aldo

    Doesn't matter that Jones and Anderson got busted at all.
     
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  12. AusMMAfan

    AusMMAfan Guest

    The dark side of the internet. Enjoy your stay.
     
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  13. AusMMAfan

    AusMMAfan Guest

    Did tjat cunt die?
     
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  14. AC1D1K

    AC1D1K Red Belt

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    love how you toss "logically" in there
     
  15. emax

    emax Black Belt

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    It's difficult to judge the extent to which steroid use should affect legacies because the extent to which a fighter is caught doesn't tell us much of anything about the extent to which fighters have used non approved drugs over their full career. Did St Pierre need to use a supplement that now would not be USADA approved during his title reign? We don't know. His legacy vs that of Jones or Silva is something we have to analyze in light of the fact that he avoided getting caught since that's unfortunately all we have in terms of evidence. And when it comes to truly top tier fighters, their gyms should truly be on top of everything when it comes to which drugs are allowed and how to train without getting busted. So when top tier guys are getting caught now it does mean that most likely they were being rather indulgent in how thei used their performance enhancers. And yes, looking at Jones vs OSP, the one post USADA fight he had without a positive test, it doesn't look good for his legacy to consider how that version of him would have fared against DC, or more so vs Gus.
     
  16. MRT

    MRT Brown Belt

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    slippery slope...look it up. Just because GSP can be elevated above Jones in GOAT talk, due to Jones' cheating, it does not follow that it elevates c-level fighters above Jones.

    The gap between GSP and Jones in GOAT talk was marginal to begin with...the gap remains HUGE between Jones and CB or Craig, regardless of the juicing.

    Consider this: a track star consistently runs sub 10-second 100m races, edging out his star peers by mere tenths of a second...while another track athlete has never broken 11 seconds (never mind 10).

    Then we find out that first one started juicing at some point and it improved their times by an average of 0.50 seconds, with relatively little deviation.

    We can exempt that person from 'greatness', due to their cheating, without implying that the other athlete is now "better" than them in any way. Even without the juice, the first person would STILL be faster, and is therefore the better performer...i.e. they just would not have achieved "star" status with the even faster times if they didn't juice.

    how does this relate? Virtually NO ONE would suggest that any amount of juicing is going to make CB Dolloway as good a fighter as Jon Jones...the gap between them is simply too wide from the start. Juicing may have widened that gap, and it may have allowed Jon to dominate his peers, but it's absence does not eliminate the gap between him and CB...i.e. Jon Jones can be eliminated from GOAT talk without elevating CB above him, as Jones is simply the better fighter regardless and CB still does not belong in GOAT discussions.

    Where it makes a difference is when that cheating drops someone below the 2nd place person (or if it drops them below a number of people). The difficulty is that we can't so easily measure 'greatness' in MMA the way we can measure track times and the improvement in times that juicing appears to grant, so the debate becomes muddied and imperfect.

    Does Jones juicing mean that CB is above him in GOAT convos? No...but it might mean that someone like GSP could move above him, as the gap between them was academic to begin with...Jones' cheating makes a much more convincing argument for elevating GSP above him.
     
  17. Patman

    Patman Brown Belt

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    USADA = science, not faith. GTFOH.
     
  18. HaikenEdge

    HaikenEdge Rationality will win the day.

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    When somebody pisses hot, I don't knock them down the rankings, I take them off the rankings altogether and put them in the "pissed hot" rankings.

    By this logic, Paul Craig and CB Dollaway aren't ranked above Jon Jones and Anderson Silva because they're not even in the same set of rankings.
     
  19. rb3b3

    rb3b3 Purple Belt

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    This is the correct answer
     
  20. hot carl

    hot carl Gold Belt

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    TS’s thread.
     

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