Logically, Steroid Usage Has No Impact On GOAT Status

[brucelee619]

If you want to say that Anderson Silva and Jon Jones are not GOAT status because of steroid usage, that is fine, we are all entitled to our unreasonable religious superiority beliefs. However, logically, it doesn't make sense.

My question is this, how much down the ranking does steroid usage demote a fighter? It is easy to say "GSP is the GOAT over Jon Jones, because GSP never tested positive for steroids." Fine. But what about a guy like Paul Craig who has a record of 1-2 in the UFC, is he also better than Jon Jones because he has never tested positive for steroids?

How many of you can seriously say Paul Craig and CB Dollaway are more deserving of GOAT status than Jon Jones, because they never tested positive for steroids?

If you can't say it with confidence, then steroids don't affect GOAT talk. If you can say it with confidence, then we have to agree that GOAT talk is not based on fighting ability.

How old are u?

 

[MRT]

We don't know the gap between GSP and Jon Jones because the two fighters have never fought, and we all know very well that MMAMath seldom adds up.

Your argument is based on religious thinking, and not logic.

The GOAT argument is based on a ranking system of worst of all time to greatest of all time based on ability.

...

then you are essentially claiming that their is some formula that allows you to rank fighters in order, while at the same time leaving you unable to comment on the actual gap between these fighters?

that might work in a case where everyone competes against each other (e.g. a race), where can simply rank competitors based on their finish. Not knowing the actual gap between them is not necessary to determine that order.

but in MMA GOAT debates, there is no such luxury, as the candidates may have never fought, and often fight in different divisions.

so what is your formula?

 

[JohnMandick]

dumb

 

[F0od]

Bones'/Anderson's GOAT aspirations:

 

[yeguiza]

If you want to say that Anderson Silva and Jon Jones are not GOAT status because of steroid usage, that is fine, we are all entitled to our unreasonable religious superiority beliefs. However, logically, it doesn't make sense.

My question is this, how much down the ranking does steroid usage demote a fighter? It is easy to say "GSP is the GOAT over Jon Jones, because GSP never tested positive for steroids." Fine. But what about a guy like Paul Craig who has a record of 1-2 in the UFC, is he also better than Jon Jones because he has never tested positive for steroids?

How many of you can seriously say Paul Craig and CB Dollaway are more deserving of GOAT status than Jon Jones, because they never tested positive for steroids?

If you can't say it with confidence, then steroids don't affect GOAT talk. If you can say it with confidence, then we have to agree that GOAT talk is not based on fighting ability.

the mistake in your analysis is that you don´t accept the reality: 100% of them are on PEDS

wtf!

 

[bigmacbub]

Frank mittelo one of the worst posters easily

 

[Kneeuinthenutz]

Well rest easy because steroids or not, the idea Anderson Silva is anywhere close to the greatest fighter we've ever seen it nothing short of laughable. It's insulting to the sport of MMA to have suggested so at any point.

Jon Jones? I'll entertain the idea, but the fact is he's been beating people he's considerably larger than. The ONE guy he fought who is about his size beat the shit out of him and got screwed out of a win....

 

[ermac88]

If you want to say that Anderson Silva and Jon Jones are not GOAT status because of steroid usage, that is fine, we are all entitled to our unreasonable religious superiority beliefs. However, logically, it doesn't make sense.

My question is this, how much down the ranking does steroid usage demote a fighter? It is easy to say "GSP is the GOAT over Jon Jones, because GSP never tested positive for steroids." Fine. But what about a guy like Paul Craig who has a record of 1-2 in the UFC, is he also better than Jon Jones because he has never tested positive for steroids?

How many of you can seriously say Paul Craig and CB Dollaway are more deserving of GOAT status than Jon Jones, because they never tested positive for steroids?

If you can't say it with confidence, then steroids don't affect GOAT talk. If you can say it with confidence, then we have to agree that GOAT talk is not based on fighting ability.

To make it more complicated-

GSP had his run PRIOR to USADA and fled when it was on the horizon.

Therefore hes not being held to the same metric of post USADa fighters.

 

[ermac88]

Well rest easy because steroids or not, the idea Anderson Silva is anywhere close to the greatest fighter we've ever seen it nothing short of laughable. It's insulting to the sport of MMA to have suggested so at any point.

Jon Jones? I'll entertain the idea, but the fact is he's been beating people he's considerably larger than. The ONE guy he fought who is about his size beat the shit out of him and got screwed out of a win....

Larger in mma is mass not height.

If height was an advantage, "that ONE guy" who beat the shit out of Jones, wouldn't have LOST against EVERY top 10 fighter he faced and towered over.

 

[UFC=Pride]

Thread starts with the word logically yet uses no logic at all

 

[Dorkman]

Logically, you're an idiot.

 

[hockeysponge]

are Barry Bonds and Pete Rose in the MLB hall of fame? No? Because they were caught cheating, it blemishes every single accomplishment they had forever. Doesn't mean they aren't better than a AAA minor leaguer, but they were cheaters.

Jones and Silva while talented, are cheaters. Pretty much end of discussion.

 

[Babaganoosh]

lol at people still saying GSP never juiced.


In response to OP's thread, (not really directly to his inquiry) but the fact is that until . . . shit I'll go head and start a new line to make it easier for shertards:


Until testing science gets to where fighters can't figure out ways to avoid getting caught, the "Can't be GOAT because he popped" argument is meaningless.

AGAIN

Until testing science gets to where fighters can't figure out ways to avoid getting caught, the "Can't be GOAT because he popped" argument is meaningless.

So guilty until proven innocent?

You cannot say 100% that GSP was taking steroids. You have no proof. You can say that about Anderson and Jones. I don’t know what GSP has done in his career the only thing I know is that he has never failed a drug test.

 

[Franc Mittelo]

To make it more complicated-

GSP had his run PRIOR to USADA and fled when it was on the horizon.

Therefore hes not being held to the same metric of post USADa fighters.

This is another excellent point.

If Jon Jones and Anderson Silva are disqualified based on positive USADA tests, How can GSP be GOAT when his record is only 1-0 (against an over-the-hill average fighter) under USADA? Are we just supposed to take GSP at his word that he didn't use the best medicine and technology available to him for all those years? LOL

A guy like GSP who has money and takes a scientific approach to his training and fighting didn't use advances in medicine and technology to become a better fighter. I am just suppose to believe that. LOL

If USADA is a criteria for greatness, then logically, only USADA-era records should be counted.

 

[jeremyemilio]

I know next to nothing about baseball, but it just seems like it'd be very difficult to pinpoint exactly when someone started juicing. Surely it's possible he started juicing earlier?

With most players, sure. But with Bonds everyone knows pretty much exactly when he started due to the extreme change in physical appearance, coinciding precisely with the extreme performance gains (at a very late stage in his career, at that), coinciding with the findings of the Balco investigations.

Twas not a subtle transformation:

 

[jeremyemilio]

Bonds started juicing in the late 90s, bud.

Not according to any of the evidence (body type changes, performance changes, the Balco investigation)... but even if I was willing to go there with you (I'm not) almost every stat and fact I listed happened prior to 1996.

 

[Beta Wolf]

With most players, sure. But with Bonds everyone knows pretty much exactly when he started due to the extreme change in physical appearance, coinciding precisely with the extreme performance gains (at a very late stage in his career, at that), coinciding with the findings of the Balco investigations.

Twas not a subtle transformation:

Makes sense. I mean, I suppose it's possible the stuff that he was using wasn't as good before, but at that level of athletics you'd think anyone who's cheating would cheat all the way.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Makes sense. I mean, I suppose it's possible the stuff that he was using wasn't as good before, but at that level of athletics you'd think anyone who's cheating would cheat all the way.

Except that with Bonds we even know his motivation to start (the attention given to McGwire and Sosa during their PED fueled HR battle).

 

[Tchernobog]

Well since the vast majority of fighters use or have used PEDs at some point, it's hard to use that as an argument against GOAT status, if you're willing to be objective and not naive about it.

 

[KarateYeah]

wtf is happening to these forums? I mean, I always knew we were all dumb, but this is another level