BJJ- What's REALLY effective and ineffective in a real street fight ?

[jack36767]

<45>

I was tired lol

 

[Thycidides]

I think it's deeper than that because it's not like schools are starting from the feet then pulling guard; they're starting from the knees every single roll. I think this practice hurts BJJ in more ways than one, because aside from keeping you from learning takedowns, it gives you a false sense of how guard engagements happen. In a fluid transition (like off a takedown), if you decide to get your grips and play an open guard then your opponent's first reaction is likelyto be strong and aggressive until he is subdued or swept, but when you start from the knees your opponent is naturally passive to start out, and so you will be able to comfortably get your guard and play your game. Thus, many BJJ guys learn how to play a tactically sound yet defensively flimsy open guard, when a more effective plan A might simply be to attack a single leg and come up on top.

This is very true... I put it down to coaches wanting to avoid injuries and lacking space for more stand up grappling. Also I blame a lot of 30+ white belts who don't want to break fall or do take downs. these people make up a pretty good chunk of the student body and make it hard for people like me to to get good as the instructors kind of cater to them.

 

[Evenflow80]

This is very true... I put it down to coaches wanting to avoid injuries and lacking space for more stand up grappling. Also I blame a lot of 30+ white belts who don't want to break fall or do take downs. these people make up a pretty good chunk of the student body and make it hard for people like me to to get good as the instructors kind of cater to them.

That's a major issue for me. Breaking fall. I'm not even afraid of it any more. Just afraid of my instructors criticism.

Like yesterday he chose me to demonstrate the hop toss. Twice he threw me and was upset I didn't fall right, even though I honestly felt just fine. Second time he embarrassed me by asking the class if I fell right and they all said no , then called a fellow white belt who started literally same week I did to demonstrate how its done right. It was just embarrassing and I didn't want to even finish the class.

I'm 35 and don't mind breaking fall and practicing it. I just hate the fallout if I don't do it right especially the embarsment.

Honestly thinking of supplementing my bjj training with judo once or twice a week just to learn throws

 

[jack36767]

That's a major issue for me. Breaking fall. I'm not even afraid of it any more. Just afraid of my instructors criticism.

Like yesterday he chose me to demonstrate the hop toss. Twice he threw me and was upset I didn't fall right, even though I honestly felt just fine. Second time he embarrassed me by asking the class if I fell right and they all said no , then called a fellow white belt who started literally same week I did to demonstrate how its done right. It was just embarrassing and I didn't want to even finish the class.

I'm 35 and don't mind breaking fall and practicing it. I just hate the fallout if I don't do it right especially the embarsment.

Honestly thinking of supplementing my bjj training with judo once or twice a week just to learn throws

If both the black belt and the class say it needs work, it needs work. While it sucks at the time, the instructor being truthful will benefit you more in the long run.

And being able to take criticism and ultimately meaningless embarrassment is a life skill. I know several employers that like hiring college athletes for this very reason

And it is very short sighted to do things like be mad "someone who started the same day does it better" because you aren't them, it takes away focus from yourself and ultimately wastes time and hurts development

Yes it sucks, yes it can be embarrassing, quite simply.. it's hard. And you'll feel way more accomplished if you push through it like a man and get over the instinct to react like a child

None of this is criticism, just honest advice.. hope it wasn't too honest or "mean" for you. And yes judo might be a good idea

 

[trustdoesntrust]

This is very true... I put it down to coaches wanting to avoid injuries and lacking space for more stand up grappling. Also I blame a lot of 30+ white belts who don't want to break fall or do take downs. these people make up a pretty good chunk of the student body and make it hard for people like me to to get good as the instructors kind of cater to them.

There's this weird presumption that BJJ rolls always just start on the ground, while takedowns are seen as this niche thing you practice in an isolated fashion once every couple months or so. Again, it's not just the lack of wrestling knowledge this engenders, but a false defining of ground exchanges as being disconnected from standing exchanges. The result is a subtle redefining of the sport itself, as practitioners build their games to succeed in the context of the neutral ground engagements they face every day in practice (e.g. loose open guards vs. space-oriented passing).

 

[Evenflow80]

If both the black belt and the class say it needs work, it needs work. While it sucks at the time, the instructor being truthful will benefit you more in the long run.

And being able to take criticism and ultimately meaningless embarrassment is a life skill. I know several employers that like hiring college athletes for this very reason

And it is very short sighted to do things like be mad "someone who started the same day does it better" because you aren't them, it takes away focus from yourself and ultimately wastes time and hurts development

Yes it sucks, yes it can be embarrassing, quite simply.. it's hard. And you'll feel way more accomplished if you push through it like a man and get over the instinct to react like a child

None of this is criticism, just honest advice.. hope it wasn't too honest or "mean" for you. And yes judo might be a good idea

Sorry man gotta disagree there. I'm 35 and been through shit ton of extremely hard phases in my life and work. There's constructive criticism which is fine and totally welcome and then there's criticism that's counter productive and just meant to embarrass and demoralize.

For example at work if you make a mistake (especially if you're new), it's much more productive that your boss talks to you about it in private rather than, say, bring it up in a meeting to just embarrass you.

Any ways thanks for sharing your opinion , but I don't agree with it at all.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

Why did he ask the class if you fell right? Did you say or imply that you fell right?

 

[Evenflow80]

Why did he ask the class if you fell right? Did you say or imply that you fell right?

No not at all. He threw me once, then told me i didn't do it right. Threw me again and as soon as I fell he asked the class if I did it right and they all said No, then he sent me back to line and asked my other Fellow white belt to come in so he can demonstrate it right.

I never said anything. Honestly not complaingo or anything , just responding to other user who said 30+ white belts are not wanting to practice break fall. At least in my case that isn't true in the sense I don't fear the fall, just the embarrassment if I do it wrong

 

[jack36767]

Sorry man gotta disagree there. I'm 35 and been through shit ton of extremely hard phases in my life and work. There's constructive criticism which is fine and totally welcome and then there's criticism that's counter productive and just meant to embarrass and demoralize.

For example at work if you make a mistake (especially if you're new), it's much more productive that your boss talks to you about it in private rather than, say, bring it up in a meeting to just embarrass you.

Any ways thanks for sharing your opinion , but I don't agree with it at all.

Given that it's just as likely that he was pressed for time, or didn't have the time to correct everything that might have been wrong.. or any other number of factors that effect how an instructor runs practice.. I'm going to say that it still seems like you're overreacting and being thin skinned. There is a distinct difference between being blunt and being mean.and constructive criticism doesn't need to be super duper nice. And additionally.. you've been training what? A month or so? Yet you can critique technique and compare yourself to other people as well as the instructor?genuinely askinf

 

[Evenflow80]

Given that it's just as likely that he was pressed for time, or didn't have the time to correct everything that might have been wrong.. or any other number of factors that effect how an instructor runs practice.. I'm going to say that it still seems like you're overreacting and being thin skinned. There is a distinct difference between being blunt and being mean.and constructive criticism doesn't need to be super duper nice. And additionally.. you've been training what? A month or so? Yet you can critique technique and compare yourself to other people as well as the instructor?genuinely askinf

I've been training for about 9 months. I think you're looking too hard for something i never said or even implied. I know I'm new and in no way saying I know anything.

However this situation isn't bjj exclusive. I gave a similar example in work in my previous post. If a new guy at work makes a mistake what is more constructive and useful ? Talking to him one on one or bringing up in a meeting in front of his peers and having a peer demonstrate how it's done right ?

 

[Bayonet]

I've been training for about 9 months. I think you're looking too hard for something i never said or even implied. I know I'm new and in no way saying I know anything.

However this situation isn't bjj exclusive. I gave a similar example in work in my previous post. If a new guy at work makes a mistake what is more constructive and useful ? Talking to him one on one or bringing up in a meeting in front of his peers and having a peer demonstrate how it's done right ?

IF you're trying to teach everyone in the room the thing the guy is making a mistake over, you do it in front of everybody, as a learning experience. You were supposed to watch, and learn from, the second guy. Not take it is as a personal hazing.

 

[Evenflow80]

IF you're trying to teach everyone in the room the thing the guy is making a mistake over, you do it in front of everybody, as a learning experience. You were supposed to watch, and learn from, the second guy. Not take it is as a personal hazing.

Maybe you're right.

 

[jack36767]

I've been training for about 9 months. I think you're looking too hard for something i never said or even implied. I know I'm new and in no way saying I know anything.

However this situation isn't bjj exclusive. I gave a similar example in work in my previous post. If a new guy at work makes a mistake what is more constructive and useful ? Talking to him one on one or bringing up in a meeting in front of his peers and having a peer demonstrate how it's done right ?

I haven't been mean.. I'm telling you how it sounds given the information you have presented. And while I wouldn't handle it that way most of the time, sometimes there is not enough time or something else at play to take you one on one and explain it super duper nice.. and dude it's a sports gym not a workplace, there is going to be times where one is criticized in front of people, because there isn't enough time, it's critiquing breakfall technique not messing up at work so most people will not consider it a big deal

And while the instructor should have at least sandwiched the criticism with something positive.. you are overreacting just a taf

 

[MaxMMA]

I think the main reason most bjj schools don't do a lot of takedowns is this myth that takedowns require more strength and/or athleticism than the action on the ground. I think anyone with some bit of wrestling experience will tell you than taking someone down requires every bit of technique and flow as it does once its on the ground.

If your gym isn't drilling takedowns then its probably safe to assume that your gym also doesn't drill "standing Jiujistu" there are a lot of ways to finish people on the feet using jiu-jitsu, as well as a lot of ways to counter traditional wrestling takedowns with jiu-jitsu.

If your gym doesn't have enough space to roll from the feet, you can still drill takedowns, and then do wrestling rounds with a safe number of pairs on the mat while the others sit out and wait for their turn to roll.

The only real excuse to not drill/roll wrestling/standing techniques is that your instructor is not knowledgeable in this area of martial arts. In which case its time to decide if you are ok with just learning the ground side of grappling, or if you should find another place to train.

If you're an instructor that doesn't drill this aspect of grappling you should seriously consider supplementing your training for the benefit of not only yourself, but your students.

 

[jack36767]

The only real excuse to not drill/roll wrestling/standing techniques is that your instructor is not knowledgeable in this area of martial arts. In which case its time to decide if you are ok with just learning the ground side of grappling, or if you should find another place to train.

If you're an instructor that doesn't drill this aspect of grappling you should seriously consider supplementing your training for the benefit of not only yourself, but your students.

To be fair to the instructor, it takes lot of humility to accept that the "wrestler" especially if the wrestler is just out of college/young knows more technique in that area as the instructor does bjj, or even the "coach" of a "sport" who is only a high school teacher might know more about running a practice. Add in the fact most of the instructionals that cover basics to that level are for kids often, you get a mental factor adding to everything else


*attention: I am not saying all bjj schools are like this nor am I saying that all instructors are, I am merely noting an observation, that others including my original instructor who came from a judo background have noticed

 

[selfcritical]

^ Because of the way the sport of BJJ is organized compared to other sports, a lot of even VERY skilled BJJ instructors don't know much about various ways to organize sport practice, how adults learn motor skills, how adults learn period, etc.

 

[jack36767]

^ Because of the way the sport of BJJ is organized compared to other sports, a lot of even VERY skilled BJJ instructors don't know much about various ways to organize sport practice, how adults learn motor skills, how adults learn period, etc.

Yeah, unfortunate but yeah

 

[Thycidides]

I'm pretty sure

^ Because of the way the sport of BJJ is organized compared to other sports, a lot of even VERY skilled BJJ instructors don't know much about various ways to organize sport practice, how adults learn motor skills, how adults learn period, etc.

Could you expand on this? How is teaching adults different than kids?
Interestingly the kids in the kids bjj program start sparring on the feet while in most BJJ classes at my gym rolling starts from the knees or with one person standing up and the other person on their butt.

I asked why we adults don't start on the feet more and the answer I got was people get injured too much. I've also noticed that the judo class at my gym is way smaller than the BJJ class, likely because getting thrown on the ground is sucks for 30 plus beginners compared to rolling on the ground.

 

[selfcritical]

Kids learn primarily by making tons of errors with incredibly low stakes after being given a general framework. More opportunities for mistakes =more learning generally.

Adults have 1) a lot more ego and apprehension about failing and 2) Vastly more previous experience to compare things to. Adult learning is about trimming back that ego and presenting opportunities for people to analogize to things they've already learned.

 

[FutureSergant]

Is this shit still on? Honest answer would be: It depends on situation. Are you fighting someone who trained their whole life as wrestler? They are going to eat you up. Are you fighting someone with weapon? Fighting more than one guy?

Usually it can be good to know how to grapple when its one on one,but in reality ..