Why is there a misconception among BJJ practitioners that...

[Il Wop-O]

1. You appear to be very naive if you think Roger Gracie can compare on a technical, and physical levels to top wrestlers. I am willing to bet you couldn't name a single top wrestler off the top of your head. Let me put it this way, King Mo (possible the most physically impressive MMA fighter right now) couldn't even make the US team.

2. Jiu Jitsu as a sport appears to be in a shambles, they can't decide on rules or standardisation. They take off their gi and call it no gi jiu jitsu, you can have twenty people from Brazil in their 'world championships'. Regardless the prestige of winning an Olympic gold medal and the associated funding and quality of athletes differentiates the level of wrestlers from BJJ practitioners. After all you don't even need to qualify for the mundials.

3. Your naivety supplied me with a good laugh.

Better to be though a fool in silence than to speak and remove all doubt.

Each successive post decreases your gravitas.

1. I have no doubt that in "pure grappling" (a term which you stated you do not understand), Roger could absolutely compete with olympic wrestlers. Not in Greco-Roman or Freestyle or Folkstyle, they would eat his lunch. Put an olympic wrestler in a gi and Roger would have them napping in short order. But in "pure grappling", where all grappling aspects are utilized - wrestling takedowns, Judo takedowns, top control, bottom attacks, submissions/newaza - Roger, Xande, Jacare, Braulio, etc would all do very well. As a further note, Roger's technical savvy is such that he is routinely seen defeating those fighters with superior athleticism.

And check out Ben Askren - fantastic wrestler, albeit a bit funky. He certainly has a lot of respect for the technical apects of BJJ, in which he is a purple belt, if I am not mistaken. And he's a perfect example of a wrestler who probably excels a bit more because of his physical attributes than because of technique.

2. BJJ as a sport is just fine. THe IBJJF rules are pretty universal. The Mundials are the world championships, and regardless of qualifiers, the best in the world are the consistent winners. Seems pretty ship-shape to me. And so what if you take of the gi and it becomes submission wrestling!?! You take out the leg grips and it becomes Greco-Roman! One has nothing to do with the other. There is a BJJ world championship. There's Olympic Judo. There's a Sambo championship. There's Olympic G-R, etc. Let them all put on some shorts and compete in Abu Dhabi, call that submission wrestling! It has no bearing on BJJ as a sport or any of the other grappling arts.

3. Who is naive?

p.s. - I, and I would venture that most of us who train in BJJ, have a great deal of respect for and a great desire to learn and incorporate the techniques of great wrestling, along with CACC, Judo, Sambo, etc.

Most of us are not dopey kids with blinders on.

 

[peytonlucy]

wow that's awesome, but guess what! Roger Gracie would choke all those wrestlers unconscious if they rolled.

Mark Kerr ran the table at ADCC twice with almost no submission grappling background at all. He won under submission grappling rules. I think he didn't give up any points either. Do you think Roger could avoid being pinned in a freestyle wrestling match with an Olympic champion?

 

[knoxpk]

 

[DeathMetalHead]

1. okay... so since you've done both, if anything, you should be able to recognize how radically different the sports are. Your cross training makes your experience more subjective than the average person, but also shows you how the intent is different. You pinning the black belt didn't win you shit.

2. And I can make a wrestling tournament saying whoever wins is the world champion. I can do that.
Its whether or not the community disputes it and takes it seriously. Its basic post-modern philosophy... if the community doesn't agree with your rules and concepts, then your concepts only have meaning to you. No one else thinks you're the world champion if you win the tournament.
Thus, wrestling has more of what BJJ doesn't: Homogeny. MORE universal acceptance on rules. Does that make it more of a sport? By definition of the word sport: NO.

3. But that still means there is simply a different kind of style... Gi and Nogi jiu jitsu are just different 'sports' under the banner of Jiu Jitsu.

My point is, you're coming off arrogant because you're creating a criteria of judgement that no one else agrees with you on. If you're the only one that agrees with your criteria, how will anything constructive ever be done? It wont.
And like I said, its difficult to create that criteria because of the variables within the sports and of course, the personal experiences.

1. I believe in some rules for BJJ I would have beat the Black belt because i got the take down.

2. No, you can't, you would be sued. I can however make a BJJ world championships and ironically it could quite easily with some funding be the most legitimate WC for BJJ.

''A sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive, and skillful physical activity requiring commitment and fair play.[note] It is governed by a set of rules or customs. In a sport the key factors are the physical capabilities and skills of the competitor when determining the outcome

My definition of sport clearly shows BJJ can only loosely be considered a sport, whereas wrestling fully matches the definition.

3. Some people are agreeing with me. It seems to me quite obvious that the quality of top class wrestlers physically and technically is superior to jiu jitsu practitioners. Its simply a fact.

 

[DeathMetalHead]

Better to be though a fool in silence than to speak and remove all doubt.

Each successive post decreases your gravitas.

1. I have no doubt that in "pure grappling" (a term which you stated you do not understand), Roger could absolutely compete with olympic wrestlers. Not in Greco-Roman or Freestyle or Folkstyle, they would eat his lunch. Put an olympic wrestler in a gi and Roger would have them napping in short order. But in "pure grappling", where all grappling aspects are utilized - wrestling takedowns, Judo takedowns, top control, bottom attacks, submissions/newaza - Roger, Xande, Jacare, Braulio, etc would all do very well. As a further note, Roger's technical savvy is such that he is routinely seen defeating those fighters with superior athleticism.

And check out Ben Askren - fantastic wrestler, albeit a bit funky. He certainly has a lot of respect for the technical apects of BJJ, in which he is a purple belt, if I am not mistaken. And he's a perfect example of a wrestler who probably excels a bit more because of his physical attributes than because of technique.

2. BJJ as a sport is just fine. THe IBJJF rules are pretty universal. The Mundials are the world championships, and regardless of qualifiers, the best in the world are the consistent winners. Seems pretty ship-shape to me. And so what if you take of the gi and it becomes submission wrestling!?! You take out the leg grips and it becomes Greco-Roman! One has nothing to do with the other. There is a BJJ world championship. There's Olympic Judo. There's a Sambo championship. There's Olympic G-R, etc. Let them all put on some shorts and compete in Abu Dhabi, call that submission wrestling! It has no bearing on BJJ as a sport or any of the other grappling arts.

3. Who is naive?

p.s. - I, and I would venture that most of us who train in BJJ, have a great deal of respect for and a great desire to learn and incorporate the techniques of great wrestling, along with CACC, Judo, Sambo, etc.

Most of us are not dopey kids with blinders on.

1. So your definition of pure grappling is a jiu jitsu match. Put an Olympic wrestler in a gi? This is getting a bit ridiculous.
I believe in ADCC Mark Kerr beat everyone without any BJJ.

2. Could I enter the mundials?

 

[gasmotorsports]

Good luck with the illusions of grandeur.

 

[Steelviper]

Why do you have to play the grammar card? I would ADVISE (not ADVICE) you to consider that we're posting quickly on a sports website.

I was playing off of his original use of the words, but you're right. We all knew what he meant. My bad.

 

[Il Wop-O]

Why do you have to play the grammar card? I would ADVISE (not ADVICE) you to consider that we're posting quickly on a sports website.

Hey, fun-guy! He "adviced" him to check out the their-there bit because the TS "adviced" BJJ fans to do something or other and basically came off as a condescending jerk.

 

[ShowUsYaJits]

Why do you have to play the grammar card? I would ADVISE (not ADVICE) you to consider that we're posting quickly on a sports website.

He may be just mocking TS, who made the error in his first post. e.g.

<snip>
I would advice in the future for BJJ practitioners not to be so arrogant with their claims of technical sophistication and to just enjoy their sport.

 

[DeathMetalHead]

I question why you guys think spelling and grammar mistakes on here are an indicator of intelligence...

I would guess I am probably the most educated man posting in this topic.

 

[Steelviper]

I don't think that TKD became any more technical since its inclusion as an Olympic sport, nor do I think that table tennis or archery are necessarily more technical than BJJ due to their Olympic status. How "technical" an activity is should pretty clearly NOT be decided by the likes of the IOC, a group that says that men's ski jump is a sport, but not women's. Since it's the EXACT SAME activity, I'd say they're probably equally technical.

 

[war path]

I have heard many BJJ guys discussing how technical BJJ is and they appear to have a belief that wrestling does not share an equal amount of technical understanding.

This has really confused me, I understand that in the sport of wrestling the importance of strength and conditioning is increased. However this does not mean technical ability is decreased.

I am of the opposite opinion that wrestling includes not only more technical skills but is a lot more technical sport and is much harder to master technically.
To compete in wrestling at a high level your technical ability needs to be on a scientific level.

However because the standard of wrestling is much higher than BJJ's standard there is also increased fitness, strength and athletic ability of high level competitors.

This should not be surprising because wrestling is a much older sport and is an Olympic sport. BJJ by comparison is just a baby and as yet has not even developed a proper world championships or any form of standardisation.

I would advice in the future for BJJ practitioners not to be so arrogant with their claims of technical sophistication and to just enjoy their sport.

Discuss.

bro. wrestling is just as technical as bjj. especially the takedowns. that shit can be really complicated in knowing when to step where to step how to step where to step after you step knowing the distance, circling, etc. and what makes this shit worse is that your opponent isn't just standing there like a nimrod.

anybody who thinks otherwise is a fucktard

 

[Shemhazai]

Do you think Roger could avoid being pinned in a freestyle wrestling match with an Olympic champion?

Seeing as Roger couldn't utilize the guard at all in a freestyle rules match, the answer would be a pretty unanimous 'hell no'.

 

[Steelviper]

I would guess I am probably the most educated man posting in this topic.

But you're definitely not the most humble...

That would be me.

 

[knoxpk]

I question why you guys think spelling and grammar mistakes on here are an indicator of intelligence...

I would guess I am probably the most educated man posting in this topic.

 

[DeathMetalHead]

bro. wrestling is just as technical as bjj. especially the takedowns. that shit can be really complicated in knowing when to step where to step how to step where to step after you step knowing the distance, circling, etc. and what makes this shit worse is that your opponent isn't just standing there like a nimrod.

anybody who thinks otherwise is a fucktard

Don;t forget the ground work. I think wrestling ground work is incredibly technical and actually very difficult to understand (at a high level).

 

[DeathMetalHead]

Don't you get tired of posting stupid pictures that add nothing to the discussion? You're like a 13 year old girl .

 

[Il Wop-O]

1. So your definition of pure grappling is a jiu jitsu match. Put an Olympic wrestler in a gi? This is getting a bit ridiculous.
I believe in ADCC Mark Kerr beat everyone without any BJJ.

2. Could I enter the mundials?

No. I would "advice" you to develop some reading comprehension in lieu of your open hostility towards another grappling art.

My definition of "pure grappling" is more similar to the ADCC rule set, which is not BJJ, by the way. I was stating that top wrestlers would out-wrestle a top bjj guy under wrestling rules, the reverse would be true in a gi under bjj rules, and under more "open" rules where all areas of grappling are utilized (as I generalized before - takedowns, top control, bottom game rather than pins, submissions, etc) without the gi, the results could be very much a mixed bag.

And both you and "PeytonLucy" (I think it was) are mistaken about Mark Kerr. By the time he entered ADCC, he had trained significantly in submissions, primarily so as to defend against them, so as to best use his wrestling to win the event while reducing the likelihood of being submitted. This was also the tactic used by Arona, who was a BJJ BB.

 

[war path]

Don;t forget the ground work. I think wrestling ground work is incredibly technical and actually very difficult to understand (at a high level).

bjj doesn't even have any standup so i think wrestling is even more technical. wrestling is even more brutal in that the technical aspect can be accented with speed and power.

 

[knoxpk]

Don't you get tired of posting stupid pictures that add nothing to the discussion? You're like a 13 year old girl .