Why do most super muscular guys punch weak?

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I think anyone who believes getting stronger won't increase your punching power is a complete idiot. Rate of Force development is pretty simple stuff. If you want to get faster you need to increase your ability to create force without increasing mass. A lot of strong people are weak punchers because they don't train to punch correctly, but if you take two exact replicas of a person and have one do strength work in addition to his skills work, I guarantee he will be a stronger puncher than the guy who doesn't do strength work.

That said, you're wondering why these guys aren't knocking out the top heavyweight fighters on the planet. Of course they aren't going to knock these guys out with a punch 90% of the time. I guarantee if Lesnar hit you or 90% of the planet in the face, he's breaking your shit. Again, most of that comes down to his training style. Brock hasn't trained to be a striker so his strikes will look weak.


Do you seriously think the heavyweight class is lacking knockout power? These guys are fucking powerful, and they are strong strikers. I don't know of many heavyweights who never strength train.
 
I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the fighters in the UFC could knock someone out if they were able to land a completely clean punch to the jaw of their opponent. The issue for most fighters is landing that punch and that comes back to striking ability in terms of setting up openings and taking advantage of them.
 
i know swimmers from the swim team and rowers from the rowing team have naturally hard punches when i kickboxed they hit like mac trucks i dont know why people say what you do in the "water does not equate to what you do on land"
 
jgarner said:
I think anyone who believes getting stronger won't increase your punching power is a complete idiot. Rate of Force development is pretty simple stuff. If you want to get faster you need to increase your ability to create force without increasing mass. A lot of strong people are weak punchers because they don't train to punch correctly, but if you take two exact replicas of a person and have one do strength work in addition to his skills work, I guarantee he will be a stronger puncher than the guy who doesn't do strength work.
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Well, there's a little more to it than that.

First off in addition to maximal strength, you also have RFD as you stated, but also speed strength- the ability to contract as quickly as possible against minimal external resistance. Increasing your max strength will perhaps have some carryover to increased RFD, but minimal to no carryover to speed strength development. Most combat sport athletes will only have strength numbers in the novice to intermediate stage - and it'll be guys who are involved in grappling, rather than strikers, who will be in the higher range of that strength as well. Beyond a certain point, an increase in max strength has little to no carryover to punching power.

Also, note the following link. In it, you'll hear that Bondarchuk found that as the bench press increased, their ability in the shot put was reduced.

I agree that it's certainly no measure of use being an athlete who qualifies as "weak" for anything- but I feel like over the past little while in this forum there's been a bit of an overemphasis on max strength development. Other qualities such as explosive strength and speed strength need addressing as well. They might gain some benefit from increased strength, but there's certainly no point continuing beyond the point of diminished returns.
 
I lifted like crazy for about two years recently, and I def noticed I could send a heavy bag flying. I want to get semi decent at boxing now!

I attribute my gains to hip and core strength tho. I don't know if goin from da 275 to da 315 made much difference.
 
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Kiwi Tricker said:
Well, there's a little more to it than that.

First off in addition to maximal strength, you also have RFD as you stated, but also speed strength- the ability to contract as quickly as possible against minimal external resistance. Increasing your max strength will perhaps have some carryover to increased RFD, but minimal to no carryover to speed strength development. Most combat sport athletes will only have strength numbers in the novice to intermediate stage - and it'll be guys who are involved in grappling, rather than strikers, who will be in the higher range of that strength as well. Beyond a certain point, an increase in max strength has little to no carryover to punching power.

Also, note the following link. In it, you'll hear that Bondarchuk found that as the bench press increased, their ability in the shot put was reduced.

I agree that it's certainly no measure of use being an athlete who qualifies as "weak" for anything- but I feel like over the past little while in this forum there's been a bit of an overemphasis on max strength development. Other qualities such as explosive strength and speed strength need addressing as well. They might gain some benefit from increased strength, but there's certainly no point continuing beyond the point of diminished returns.
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Of course there are diminishing returns for strength training in fighting. There are diminishing returns for literally any aspect of training for any sport though, so I feel like it's kind of a moot point. Going from a 2xBW squat to a 3xBW probably won't make you too much stronger at striking. Going from not being able to squat the bar to parallel to a 1.25xBW will develop enough limit strength to make you a better striker. Going from not being able to pick up the bar to a 2x BW deadlift will make you a stronger striker. Probably not as much going from 2x to 2.5x, but it really depends on individual's style and needs. This is all easily accomplished with an hour or less once or twice a week too and a dedicated training regime. One could easily take a month or two in order to make quick gains then drop to a low maintenance routine from there and reap the benefits. I don't buy into Bondarchuk's anecdotal experience about his bench training bringing down his shot put. It doesn't match the science, and you can't look at one's training without taking into account everything else. There still needs to be a lot of technique work too. You have to practice the movements with correct technique to take those strength gains in the gym and apply them to your punch, kick, tackle, swing.

You only need to be so powerful to produce the necessary force to knock someone out. Speed strength is pretty much just power from what I can tell, and to have power you must have absolute strength. I don't see what any other type of strength training is going to do for you other than absolute limit training. Any endurance training you need will almost always be best be done in the actual event. If your doing football, play football. If you're a fighter, go spar. Doing endurance work in the gym seems like a waste of time to me. If you need endurance, go do 100 rep barbell squats and tell me you're gassing.
 
Lex Bigelow said:
I lifted like crazy for about two years recently, and I def noticed I could send a heavy bag flying. I want to get semi decent at boxing now!

I attribute my gains to hip and core strength tho. I don't know if goin from da 275 to da 315 made much difference.
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No one benches more than teh 275, stop lying.
 
jgarner said:
I think anyone who believes getting stronger won't increase your punching power is a complete idiot. Rate of Force development is pretty simple stuff.
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Well, yes... but Dat Speed/Strength Curve. It takes time to apply force, and the additional force that muscles can develop as a result of strength training are much more pronounced relatively late in the muscular contraction. This is a typical Speed'/Strength Curve showing the effect of strength training:

F2.large.jpg


So the point is, if you are doing a movement that has to be completed in 200-400ms, you get the full benefit in terms of increased force. If it has to be done in 50-100ms, it's quite a lot less. So it's not just about diminishing marginal returns from going from 300lbs to 400lbs, it's the limited impact of training movements that have to be done at medium speed or low speed on movements that have to be done at high speed.

Speed strength, by the way, isn't just power. Power can be generated at any point along the curve- with a heavy weight or with a light weight. Speed strength is high force output at the bottom of the curve, over the shorter periods of time. That's as I understand it anyway.
 
Lex Bigelow said:
I lifted like crazy for about two years recently, and I def noticed I could send a heavy bag flying. I want to get semi decent at boxing now!

I attribute my gains to hip and core strength tho. I don't know if goin from da 275 to da 315 made much difference.
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Sending a bag flying tells you nothing. You could be pushing your punches.

Punching power is force delivered over as short time as possible. The bag should bend but stay relatively still, or dent rather than move for best effects.
 
There are tons of examples of muscular fighters hitting hard as hell. Anthony Johnson, Woodley, Romero, Ellenberger etc.
 
JauntyAngle said:
Well, yes... but Dat Speed/Strength Curve. It takes time to apply force, and the additional force that muscles can develop as a result of strength training are much more pronounced relatively late in the muscular contraction. This is a typical Speed'/Strength Curve showing the effect of strength training:

F2.large.jpg


So the point is, if you are doing a movement that has to be completed in 200-400ms, you get the full benefit in terms of increased force. If it has to be done in 50-100ms, it's quite a lot less. So it's not just about diminishing marginal returns from going from 300lbs to 400lbs, it's the limited impact of training movements that have to be done at medium speed or low speed on movements that have to be done at high speed.

Speed strength, by the way, isn't just power. Power can be generated at any point along the curve- with a heavy weight or with a light weight. Speed strength is high force output at the bottom of the curve, over the shorter periods of time. That's as I understand it anyway.
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I feel like I don't tell you how much I love and appreciate you often enough baby <3
 
JauntyAngle said:
Well, yes... but Dat Speed/Strength Curve. It takes time to apply force, and the additional force that muscles can develop as a result of strength training are much more pronounced relatively late in the muscular contraction. This is a typical Speed'/Strength Curve showing the effect of strength training:

F2.large.jpg


So the point is, if you are doing a movement that has to be completed in 200-400ms, you get the full benefit in terms of increased force. If it has to be done in 50-100ms, it's quite a lot less. So it's not just about diminishing marginal returns from going from 300lbs to 400lbs, it's the limited impact of training movements that have to be done at medium speed or low speed on movements that have to be done at high speed.

Speed strength, by the way, isn't just power. Power can be generated at any point along the curve- with a heavy weight or with a light weight. Speed strength is high force output at the bottom of the curve, over the shorter periods of time. That's as I understand it anyway.
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That chart shows there is an increase, and I would venture to say that the rate of change keeps increasing with further training unless there's a study I don't know about.
 
jgarner said:
That chart shows there is an increase, and I would venture to say that the rate of change keeps increasing with further training unless there's a study I don't know about.
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Yes, there should be an increase although it will depend on the individual. I suppose it's possible that there are some people whose curve is such that there is almost no increase at the fastest speeds- people who are naturally not that explosive.

As I said, strength training does increase force production over the very short timeline, just usually not near as much as it does over the longer timelines. So it's not very efficient- but you should probably still do it, at least up to some sort of base level.
 
Phlog said:
Sending a bag flying tells you nothing. You could be pushing your punches.

Punching power is force delivered over as short time as possible. The bag should bend but stay relatively still, or dent rather than move for best effects.
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Well if that's true then you've just made my day bub :)
 
Lex Bigelow said:
I lifted like crazy for about two years recently, and I def noticed I could send a heavy bag flying. I want to get semi decent at boxing now!

I attribute my gains to hip and core strength tho. I don't know if goin from da 275 to da 315 made much difference.
Click to expand...
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