Why do accomplished Runners do so poorly at MMA cardio?

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I always wonder if you removed the high mileage roadwork that the Thais do, would they still have the stamina needed in Muay Thai match.

Excellent question. I heard that these fuckers run 10K every day 6 x a week. That's an insane volume, long-term.
I am sure that there are other ways to achieve cardio, but if you look at Thais looking in stadium, they are usually very lean with little muscle mass in the upper body and muscular calfs and thighs. This typical body type probably explains at least partly the way a MT fight in a stadium looks like, especially the way these guys are graceful (no homo).

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

12 mph is fast as shit and much faster than any non-elite runner can sustain in an outdoor run either on a track or a paved surface. 12 mph = 5 min mile = 15:32 5K time.

For context my fastest ever 5K time was 17:39. I did that as a 10th grade HS cross-country runner with very good but not elite running ability. That race got me a spot on the Varsity squad. 17:39 = 5:41 min/mile pace = 10.4 mph. And that was bottom level Varsity HS time for skinny kids that specialize and train only for 5K runs. When I was that fast I was BARELY able to squeeze out one 5 min mile = 12 mph for 5 minutes if I just went for broke over 1 mile.

After 11th grade I switched focus to grappling and strength training, but continued to run frequently for general conditioning. As a 160+ lbs adult, even with 5 days/week training runs geared towards recreational 5K's, I've never been able to break a 19:10 5K = 6:10 min/mile = 9.7 mph. I can tell you that running that fast in any public place (track, park, street), will make you 99% of the time running faster than anyone else in the area and usually much faster.

EDIT: I'll even amend and say that if you can sustainably run 10+ mph you will almost never, if ever be outrun in a public place during training. In the last 25 years doing training runs outdoors, I've never been outrun over the course I was running. I wear a HR monitor watch with GPS. Even doing training runs in Central Park in NYC (where there are many fast runners), 99% of the time I was faster along the course I was running. And the 1% of the time when there was some super fast asshole around, I would make it a point to haul ass, crank it up to briefly to around 12 mph and pass his ass before hitting a fork in the road and turning a corner to go a different way, so he wouldn't see me panting and wheezing behind a tree LOL.

My best time for a 5K is around 24mn, so that makes me a poor runner. Yet, I usually outrun most people I run next to in the street. I think the reason is that I only run 5Ks, but most people run either 10Ks (at a slower pace), or "run 45mn / 1 hour".

Just saying that outrunning most people does not mean much if you don't know the distance they are training for.

 

[ChickenBrother]

My best time for a 5K is around 24mn, so that makes me a poor runner. Yet, I usually outrun most people I run next to in the street. I think the reason is that I only run 5Ks, but most people run either 10Ks (at a slower pace), or "run 45mn / 1 hour".

Just saying that outrunning most people does not mean much if you don't know the distance they are training for.

For sure. That was me being petty and immature in public. Most runners do training runs slower than "race pace." When I'm in running shape my race pace (redlining it at anaerobic threshold) is just under 10 mph which is an 18:40 5K time. But my typical training run would average between 8 and 9 mph pace. And during training runs I work in intermittent sprints and always at the end, I sprint all out for the last minute with my GPS watch log showing MAYBE 11.5 mph average over last quarter mile and max speed of 15 to 16 mph for a few seconds.

For more context on just how fast 12 mph pace is, when I was a HS runner my school had won the California state track championship 7 of the previous 8 years and set a National HS record for 4 x 100 (mostly on the backs of 100m sprinters from the inner city). Our 5K cross-country team was not state level elite but was competitive in regional meets. Fastest kid on the team ran a 5K 16:20 PR which is 11.4 mph pace. The coach actually subbed him in for a 4x100m sprint leg when one of the star sprinters was out with an injury. He wasn't as fast as the sprinters but goes to show how respectable his 5K time was.

All time top-10 records for our HS 5K course over 40+ years ranged from 14:40 to 14:59 (12.4 to 12.7 mph pace) and all those guys (and many slower guys) got plum college athletic scholarships. Minimum 5K benchmark for D1 college scholarship is 16:10 (11.5 mph pace) and for D2 it's 17:20 (10.75 mph pace).

But this is a longwinded way of putting more context around the assertion that sustained >12 mph for more than a few minutes is elite pace for dedicated competitive runners. It is IMO unattainable for vast majority of people.

 

[Noodles03]

@ChickenBrother , on your recovery days, do you normally go for a light 20-30 minutes jog?

 

[ChickenBrother]

@ChickenBrother , on your recovery days, do you normally go for a light 20-30 minutes jog?

Short answer yes. These days, I'm pretty worn out from BJJ 3 days/week + 2 days 3 x 5 lifting so I only run when I'm either injured or feeling too worn out for lifting or BJJ, which ends up being maybe once a month or so. I do a 2.25 mile loop around my house which includes 2 steep hills, and my fastest time is around 16 min = 8.4 mph pace. If I'm really dragging ass or feeling sick and just want to break a sweat, this loop takes me about 21 min = 6.5 mph pace.

But I'm in my 40's. Last time I regularly ran +3 times/week was 2 years ago and back then I could reliably average a 3 mile hard flat training run @ 9.3 mph which is 20 min 5K pace.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

For sure. That was me being petty and immature in public. Most runners do training runs slower than "race pace." When I'm in running shape my race pace (redlining it at anaerobic threshold) is just under 10 mph which is an 18:40 5K time. But my typical training run would average between 8 and 9 mph pace. And during training runs I work in intermittent sprints and always at the end, I sprint all out for the last minute with my GPS watch log showing MAYBE 11.5 mph average over last quarter mile and max speed of 15 to 16 mph for a few seconds.

For more context on just how fast 12 mph pace is, when I was a HS runner my school had won the California state track championship 7 of the previous 8 years and set a National HS record for 4 x 100 (mostly on the backs of 100m sprinters from the inner city). Our 5K cross-country team was not state level elite but was competitive in regional meets. Fastest kid on the team ran a 5K 16:20 PR which is 11.4 mph pace. The coach actually subbed him in for a 4x100m sprint leg when one of the star sprinters was out with an injury. He wasn't as fast as the sprinters but goes to show how respectable his 5K time was.

All time top-10 records for our HS 5K course over 40+ years ranged from 14:40 to 14:59 (12.4 to 12.7 mph pace) and all those guys (and many slower guys) got plum college athletic scholarships. Minimum 5K benchmark for D1 college scholarship is 16:10 (11.5 mph pace) and for D2 it's 17:20 (10.75 mph pace).

But this is a longwinded way of saying that yes, sustained >12 mph for more than a few minutes is elite pace for dedicated competitive runners. It is IMO unattainable for vast majority of people.

Yes I think we all agree that the 12 mph statement was absurd.

 

[Thorpedo28]

Yes I think we all agree that the 12 mph statement was absurd.

Best thing was he put 12-15mph which is even more hilarious then got angry when called out on it!

I've just been out for a steady morning run 5k in about 23 mins which for me isn't too painful but not too quick either.

I know a few boxers who do plenty of road miles as well and they are generally between 18-22 mins for a 5k depending on natural ability/weight/effort

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Best thing was he put 12-15mph which is even more hilarious then got angry when called out on it!

I've just been out for a steady morning run 5k in about 23 mins which for me isn't too painful but not too quick either.

I know a few boxers who do plenty of road miles as well and they are generally between 18-22 mins for a 5k depending on natural ability/weight/effort

As a poor runner, I have never achieved a 23mn 5K even if I know that it isn't anything special. That being said, I really doubt that any couch potato out of shape dude can achieve such time without training his ass off for it. I know a bunch of otherwise in shape dudes who could not run like that.

 

[ChickenBrother]

As a poor runner, I have never achieved a 23mn 5K even if I know that it isn't anything special. That being said, I really doubt that any couch potato out of shape dude can achieve such time without training his ass off for it. I know a bunch of otherwise in shape dudes who could not run like that.

I've found this to be true. Running efficiency varies hugely by individual, and it's difficult if not impossible to improve.

One of my buddies was a better natural athlete in almost every way. Exact same weight at 168 lbs but he was 2" taller at 5' 11", was leaner, more flexible and slightly stronger in every lift. If you saw him on the street he was built like and LOOKED like a runner. But he sucked at running. We were both in very good shape and did the same workouts together for Judo competition but I could run 2 miles in 11:50 while he struggled to break 15:00 and he had to train to do that.

On the flip side a woman on a running club I used to workout with could run a 5K in 17:10 which is insanely fast for a female. And the crazy part is she looked slightly overweight. Had a little bit of a paunch and I'd say would have had to lose 10 lbs before she would have looked "lean."

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I've found this to be true. Running efficiency varies hugely by individual, and it's difficult if not impossible to improve.

One of my buddies was a better natural athlete in almost every way. Exact same weight at 168 lbs but he was 2" taller at 5' 11", was leaner, more flexible and slightly stronger in every lift. If you saw him on the street he was built like and LOOKED like a runner. But he sucked at running. We were both in very good shape and did the same workouts together for Judo competition but I could run 2 miles in 11:50 while he struggled to break 15:00 and he had to train to do that.

On the flip side a woman on a running club I used to workout with could run a 5K in 17:10 which is insanely fast for a female. And the crazy part is she looked slightly overweight. Had a little bit of a paunch and I'd say would have had to lose 10 lbs before she would have looked "lean."

In my experience it can improved, though.
When I started running my 5K was above 30mn. I was able to bring that to 25 in a relatively short period by running casually like 2 times a week. This is a massive improvement.

That being said, yes in my case I am a poor runner by design (I am good at other fighting-relevant shit like reflexes and balance) so that the ceiling is very low for me and I will never be able to improve to a better time than 22mn I would say. I am on the stocky side with rather short legs and a big torso. Not a runner, period, and will never be.

 

[ChickenBrother]

In my experience it can improved, though.
When I started running my 5K was above 30mn. I was able to bring that to 25 in a relatively short period by running casually like 2 times a week. This is a massive improvement.

That being said, yes in my case I am a poor runner by design (I am good at other fighting-relevant shit like reflexes and balance) so that the ceiling is very low for me and I will never be able to improve to a better time than 22mn I would say. I am on the stocky side with rather short legs and a big torso. Not a runner, period, and will never be.

I think we're saying the same thing.

Initial improvement you made was getting your cardio system and body in shape and used to running. I did this as a 15 yo who wanted to make the HS cross country team. Ran 4 miles 5 days/week on my own during summer break and improved my 5K time from around 23 min to 18 min. So as an untrained kid who had never trained or competed in any sport, I was able to do 23 min 5K off the bat.

When school started I was faster than the 10th graders who had been on the team the previous year AND had spent summer at running camp doing running specific training. Made varsity team with 2 months of running on my own over kids that had 2 years specific training for 5K races, and we were all same age, same build, probably within 5 lbs of each other.

But from that point even after 2 years doing running specific training with the team, pace training, interval training, etc. my 5K time didn't improve much - best I got was 17:39 despite training harder and smarter. Slowest guy on the team did around 22 min and fastest guy was 16:20, and we were all about the same size and build and did the same training every day. And we were all skinny kids that had self selected as distance runners. Kids that were fast stayed fast. Kids that were slower stayed slower despite training their asses off.

Individual body mechanics determine running efficiency. Stride length, how your foot strikes the ground, where your muscles attach to the bone, amount of fast vs. slow twitch muscle, etc. don't change with training and the sum of those factors varies massively among otherwise "in shape" people.

I'm convinced inherent running efficiency has a bigger impact on personal ceiling for running performance than the 2 factors you CAN change: cardio-respiratory fitness and bodyweight.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I think we're saying the same thing.

Initial improvement you made was getting your cardio system and body in shape and used to running. I did this as a 15 yo who wanted to make the HS cross country team. Ran 4 miles 5 days/week on my own during summer break and improved my 5K time from around 23 min to 18 min. So as an untrained kid who had never trained or competed in any sport, I was able to do 23 min 5K off the bat.

When school started I was faster than the 10th graders who had been on the team the previous year AND had spent summer at running camp doing running specific training. Made varsity team with 2 months of running on my own over kids that had 2 years specific training for 5K races, and we were all same age, same build, probably within 5 lbs of each other.

But from that point even after 2 years doing running specific training with the team, pace training, interval training, etc. my 5K time didn't improve much - best I got was 17:39 despite training harder and smarter. Slowest guy on the team did around 22 min and fastest guy was 16:20, and we were all about the same size and build and did the same training every day. And we were all skinny kids that had self selected as distance runners. Kids that were fast stayed fast. Kids that were slower stayed slower despite training their asses off.

Individual body mechanics determine running efficiency. Stride length, how your foot strikes the ground, where your muscles attach to the bone, amount of fast vs. slow twitch muscle, etc. don't change with training and the sum of those factors varies massively among otherwise "in shape" people.

I'm convinced inherent running efficiency has a bigger impact on personal ceiling for running performance than the 2 factors you CAN change: cardio-respiratory fitness and bodyweight.

Oh yes indeed we were saying the same thing and I agree with the conclusions of this post as well.

 

[Noodles03]

So as an untrained kid who had never trained or competed in any sport, I was able to do 23 min 5K off the bat.

Were you wearing this when you did your first 5K?

 

[ChickenBrother]

Were you wearing this when you did your first 5K?

Lol can't remember what brand but I started with whatever was the cheapest running shoe at SportMart. After getting put on varsity squad, I got these and still remember them as the most comfortable and retro cool looking running shoes ever:

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Lol can't remember what brand but I started with whatever was the cheapest running shoe at SportMart. After getting put on varsity squad, I got these and still remember them as the most comfortable and retro cool looking running shoes ever:

Damn - that's dandy looking and light years away from the ugly technical shits we have nowadays.

 

[suizuri]

hi all. i know im late to the party, but just to clarify, what's the best way to improve cardio for fighting then? is it advisable to not run and just do that alternative cardio workout?

 

[NoSmilez]

hi all. i know im late to the party, but just to clarify, what's the best way to improve cardio for fighting then? is it advisable to not run and just do that alternative cardio workout?

I feel like you have to run to build the baseline cardio up.

 

[suizuri]

I feel like you have to run to build the baseline cardio up.

that makes sense and probably why all athletes jog and run.

after building baseline, then what the best next move? just sport-specific drills to build sport-specific cardio?

 

[ChickenBrother]

Damn - that's dandy looking and light years away from the ugly technical shits we have nowadays.

Yeah I love the clean look. They still sell it as a retro model in different colors - it's the Asics GT-2:



https://www.complex.com/sneakers/2012/04/asics-gt-ii-whiteroyal-blue

Apparently the white and blue was the 2012 version that looks exactly like the pair I had in the early 90's. If they offer it again I'm jumping on them - wouldn't be as cushioned as today's ugly versions but pretty cheap and would be good to just kick around in.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Yeah I love the clean look. They still sell it as a retro model in different colors - it's the Asics GT-2:



https://www.complex.com/sneakers/2012/04/asics-gt-ii-whiteroyal-blue

Apparently the white and blue was the 2012 version that looks exactly like the pair I had in the early 90's. If they offer it again I'm jumping on them - wouldn't be as cushioned as today's ugly versions but pretty cheap and would be good to just kick around in.

Ok. Yeah as everyday sneakers but not sure I d be very keen on running with those though....