Why do accomplished Runners do so poorly at MMA cardio?

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by -guerilla-, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. Noodles03

    Noodles03 Green Belt

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    Who has great conditioning is Ross Enamait; his stamina is impressive.
     
  2. Cole train

    Cole train Black Belt

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    hhmmm lets think

    diaz bros have ridiculous cardio and they run

    ferguson runs a shit ton and he has great cardio

    holloway beastly cardio and he runs a lot as well

    fedor as well great cardio for a heavy and used to run a lot

    i see a pattern here lol

    that being said running is not a must thing to do but all the guys with exceptional cardio do run in my experience
     
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  3. kevo1295

    kevo1295 Brown Belt

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    In my experience with high school wrestling. The long distance runners were often phenomenal compared to other sports. I think baseball players transitioned the best for some reason. Football players were maybe 75/25. Basketball players were always trash.
     
  4. iwillbebackin3weeks

    iwillbebackin3weeks Banned Banned

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    imo soccer is best for cardio.

    never had any problems in boxing.

    grappling (maybe its genetics) isnt that hardcore, but clinching is.

    Soccer requires acceleration and deceleration. It requires strength, coordination and balance.
     
  5. iwillbebackin3weeks

    iwillbebackin3weeks Banned Banned

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    im shooked ... if you do that for the first time, thats normal.
     
  6. Kenneth Andrews

    Kenneth Andrews White Belt

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    That's the
    That's the Point. No amount of cardio and conditioning not related to grappling will prepare you for it.


    Similarly while running has its benefits no amount of it will ever prepare you for combat sports. It's like asking a poll vaulter to run a marathon and wondering why his time is so bad. Different sports with a different focus and different training methods.
     
  7. -guerilla-

    -guerilla- Founder of the Louisville fight club est..1993

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    They all shave as well, is shaving a critical component of MMA?

    Lots of things have incidental similarities.

    Giless Grappling and more so MMA are PHENOMENALLY more cardio demanding than running

    If all the athletes you just named grappled instead of ran they would be even better at MMA.

    If you cloned Dan Henderson and one clone grappled 20 hours a week

    While the other clone grappled 10 hrs and ran 10 hrs instead

    The exclusive grappling clone would have better cardio for MMA.
     
  8. SmackerooJack

    SmackerooJack Prince of Dukes Double Yellow Card

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    So much theory in here! Hands up who runs at least 50 miles a week in here?
     
  9. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    Stress and nerves. They absolutely sap alot. And it's an area people do the realize til competing. Being put out of your comfort zone adds significsnsig to stress
     
  10. Kenneth Andrews

    Kenneth Andrews White Belt

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    Yeah that's definitely another issue.

    I just lost my first kickboxing fight. I was well conditioned. But my body just gave out. I was slower than in sparring with longer reaction times. I reverted to absolute basic techniques when my style depends on a flow of different techniques. Ultimately my opponent didn't beat me so much as my body did. He didn't do much to really threaten me. But as soon as the action broke I started gagging.

    I've experienced it before in my first 2 mma fights which I won before the adrenaline dump. But after so much time off it hit me again. I have so many people telling me it's my diet, or I don't have enough cardio, or other nonsense from people who don't understand that the best cardio in the world won't help you if your body can't handle the adrenaline. I didn't gas. I know what it's like to gas. that wasn't it.
     
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  11. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    For sure, and when you're panicking you start breathing poorly and it ultimately gets you. No matter how amazing of an athlete you are, if you dont take in and only exhale, you'll gas.

    There's also the combination factor of getting stressed AND taking bodyshots which saps your tank even further.

    Biggest problem with rookies is the clinch. They get there and stop breathing while trying to use everything to dominate. #1 gas factor for them. It's pretty common to see them gas out after 10-20 seconds there. People laugh, but 10 seconds is almost an eternity. Getting mounted and wailed on does the same pretty much as well
     
  12. TheeFaulted

    TheeFaulted Inzer Belt

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    Why does someone who claims to have so much experience not understand the basics of why steady state cardio is important? Who knows?
     
  13. BillytheFish

    BillytheFish Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    That's cool but they have done and continue to do tests for these things:

    "A panel of three Ph.D.’s that specialize in the science of muscles and movement, a Director of the Coaching and Sports Sciences Division at the United States Olympic Committee, a sports star and various other pundits voted on what makes certain sports more difficult. The committee evaluated ten categories; endurance, strength, power, speed, agility, flexibility, nerve, durability, hand-eye coordination, & analytic aptitude."

    Want to know what was ranked 1st?

    Boxing

    As another poster has stated- when it comes to competing the 'cardio' etc should be as sport specific as possible.
     
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  14. NoSmilez

    NoSmilez Silver Belt

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    You take long distance runners and put them in a sport where they aren't conditioned to do. They will obviously get tired.
    All fighters with decent cardio more or less run. You also condition your legs and get them stronger. Running builds the base of your cardio. I don't believe you can take someone who is out of shape and force them to run sprints. Suddenly their cardio will be magnificent from just sprinting.
    The only people I see that might not need to run as much are folks who already train a lot all the time and have an existing high baseline for cardio. They might benefit more from sprinting.
     
  15. ChickenBrother

    ChickenBrother JCPENNEY $3.98 BELT

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    I competed in both distance running (cross country 5K and 800M T&F) and grappling sports (wrestling, Judo, BJJ) since high school. To OP's point, when I started wrestling in 10th grade I was surprised I DID NOT have any cardio advantage coming from a running sport. Completely agree with other posters re. cardio and sport specificity.

    But fwiw when I used to run regularly 3-5x per week my resting HR was around 42. When I did only grappling + weight training 5x per week my RHR is high 40's to 50. So while the benefit to grappling may be only incremental, I do believe that running improves your cardio and VO2 max in a way that grappling alone can not. There has to be a reason that most if not all elite grapplers and fighters run.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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  16. Kenneth Andrews

    Kenneth Andrews White Belt

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    I think it can help with active recovery, but I'm no expert. Even then I'd stick to HIIT. No need to run miles upon miles. Keep it short and sweet so you can get back to training what really matters.

    But hey if you have time in the morning and want to run then have at it. My issue is paying a gym almost $100 per month for them to waste half the class running or doing conditioning. I'm paying for jiujitsu, or kickboxing, not run class. I can do the rest on my own time and don't need my hand held. If I did I wouldn't be serious enough about my sport for you to waste your time anyways.
     
  17. Noodles03

    Noodles03 Green Belt

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    Looking back at my extremely limited experience with mma and Muay Thai, that seem to be the case with conditioning. However with boxing, you did mitts work, speed bag, double end bag, heavy bag, sparring, shadow boxing, or some kind of drill work and I would jump rope to warm up. You did conditioning on your own time.

    Of course, I’m not sure if this true with all boxing gym.
     
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  18. ChickenBrother

    ChickenBrother JCPENNEY $3.98 BELT

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    100% agree. I wish they would let us warm up on our own before class so we get full 90 min technique and rolling/sparring.

    I'm no expert either but IME HIIT training replicates a long hard grappling session so I used to do that when I didn't have class or grappling partners available. When I run I generally go 2 to 3 miles at race pace with a big sprint at the end so I have nothing left. Anything over 3 miles is just destroying my knees IMO.

    My recovery was good enough in my 20's and 30's that I could run twice/week (on my own time) on top of other training and I felt more energetic outside of the gym. As mentioned, my RHR was notably lower when I ran vs. focusing only on grappling + weights. After 40 I cut back to running once/week. Now at 45 my recovery isn't what it was, so I do only grappling and weights 4 - 5 x week with maybe a run every few months when I can't make it to class.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  19. ctrlaltdelete

    ctrlaltdelete Brown Belt

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    Nick and Nate Diaz do Triathlons right?

    They are known for their endurance.
     
  20. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    Any increase in LVH and RBC count/oxygen carrying capacity is great. Muscle specific adaptations are needed however, for any sport that has more specific demands than run from A to B. Factor in adrenaline, pain, stress, other components of conditioning need to be present.

    Conditioning goes beyond cardio based themes. Joel Jamieson has a good book on MMA conditioning, though e does touch greatly on cardiovascular adaptations.

    Other things to consider: Hypercapnia, lactate shuttling ( in many muscles, as it differs greatly based on training), inflammation response during fight/training, Stroke volume of heart, tidal volume/capacity, Na/K+ channels (more so during fight than training), mental fatigue.

    Here is one many neglect to look at:
    https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005581
     
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