Why do accomplished Runners do so poorly at MMA cardio?

[Fla graplr]

I think running is the single most important part of my training as a 200+lb guy. Running is an incredibly time efficient way to improve your cardio, maintain weight( which is 100% important to my overall grappling cardio and stamina), and teaches the mind to stay focused while the body is stressed. All while breaking you out of your comfort zone which helps you stay tough and improve.

One thing that I like is that it takes me only about 30 min from start to finish for a running session ( from stretch to the run to shower). For jiu jistu I Have to drive 20 minutes, attend class for 1hr 15min. Then drive home and shower. All that adds up to about 2 hrs. That makes it a viable way to train every day, even days I wouldnt be able to make it to the gym.

And my body cant take rolling 40 minutes every day. My joint hurt and end up with Injuries. But that isn't an excuse to not do anything that day to better yourself. Mixing up small portions of different styles of training and exercise is key to overall improvement.

 

[Thorpedo28]

Do you think you could have run for more than 20 min? If the answer is yes, your pace was too low, way too low.

Running for 1 hr at 6-8 mph like most people do is like doing 50 pushups but with 1 min break between each single pushup. It's useless unless you're playing golf or something.

What you should do is maintain a 12-15 pmh speed. If you start getting comfortable, step it up a notch.

You can also skip running and do other exercices but if you're gonna run, at least do it right.

What a load of rubbish! Most people struggle to run 7.30min miles for an hour, it's cleary not useless unless you are just playing golf!

15mph hour is 4 minute miles....people that don't run really can't grasp how fast that is.

My county 5 miler brings a great standard of runner and not a single one can ran 5 min mile for the race (12mph) Quickest time was 26:59.

When you factor that in the amount of people that can run at 15mph (Circa 60second 400m), for more than a minute will be tiny, start taking out non-runners and it becomes a much smaller size.

 

[StopDucking]

What a load of rubbish! Most people struggle to run 7.30min miles for an hour, it's cleary not useless unless you are just playing golf!

15mph hour is 4 minute miles....people that don't run really can't grasp how fast that is.

My county 5 miler brings a great standard of runner and not a single one can ran 5 min mile for the race (12mph) Quickest time was 26:59.

When you factor that in the amount of people that can run at 15mph (Circa 60second 400m), for more than a minute will be tiny, start taking out non-runners and it becomes a much smaller size.

Learn to read, retard.

I didn't say 15 mph, I said 12-15 mph, 15 being the highest end.

So 12 for regular people who train, 15 for professional athletes.

If 12 mph is still unreachable for you, fuck off to a yoga forum for soccer moms or something.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Learn to read, retard.

I didn't say 15 mph, I said 12-15 mph, 15 being the highest end.

So 12 for regular people who train, 15 for professional athletes.

If 12 mph is still unreachable for you, fuck off to a yoga forum for soccer moms or something.

While I agree with your sentiment, I think your numbers are high. 15 mph is a 4 minute mile. Close to WR pace for 1 mile and at or above what an average trained runner can maintain for MAYBE 10 or 20 seconds sprint. 12 mph is a 5-minute mile which is still very fast for a trained runner. Maintaining 12 mph or higher for more than a few minutes is going to be anaerobic for vast majority of trained runners unless you're elite.

 

[StopDucking]

While I agree with your sentiment, I think your numbers are high. 15 mph is a 4 minute mile. Close to WR pace for 1 mile and at or above what an average trained runner can maintain for MAYBE 10 or 20 seconds sprint. 12 mph is a 5-minute mile which is still very fast for a trained runner. Maintaining 12 mph or higher for more than a few minutes is going to be anaerobic for vast majority of trained runners unless you're elite.

It's indeed hard enough to be useful as a workout, which is what you want. People are complaining that running is useless. The solution to make is not useless is to run fast.

But it's not that hard either. Here's a video of some random guy running 12 mph for 10 min. I could easily do it myself when I was in highschool and training 2-6 hrs a day.

 

[ChickenBrother]

It's indeed hard enough to be useful as a workout, which is what you want. People are complaining that running is useless. The solution to make is not useless is to run fast.

But it's not that hard either. Here's a video of some random guy running 12 mph for 10 min. I could easily do it myself when I was in highschool and training 2-6 hrs a day.

Running on a treadmill is significantly easier than running outside on pavement. I regularly did five minute miles on a treadmill 10 years ago when I was a 35 year old who worked in an office. Outside I would have been lucky to hit MAYBE 1 mile at 5:45 pace. The last time I could do a true 5 minute mile outdoors was as an 11th grade, 130 lbs high school track runner.

The people complaining that running is useless are idiots. They should take that up with the probably 90% of pro and Olympic athletes that incorporate some kind of running into their training.

 

[StopDucking]

Running on a treadmill is significantly easier than running outside on pavement. I regularly did five minute miles on a treadmill 10 years ago when I was a 35 year old who worked in an office. Outside I would have been lucky to hit MAYBE 1 mile at 5:45 pace. The last time I could do a true 5 minute mile outdoors was as an 11th grade, 130 lbs high school track runner.

The people complaining that running is useless are idiots. They should take that up with the probably 90% of pro and Olympic athletes that incorporate some kind of running into their training.

You're supposed to incline the treadmill to make up for the lack of wind and ground resistance. I heard a 1-2% incline was enough. I wouldn't know as I always set it at 6%. Anyway, every treadmill can match or surpass the intensity of outdoor running if you know how to press a button (most models can go up to 12-15%). Running outdoor is a fantastic way to fuck up your joints in the long run (no pun intended).

 

[ChickenBrother]

You're supposed to incline the treadmill to make up for the lack of wind and ground resistance. I heard a 1-2% incline was enough. I wouldn't know as I always set it at 6%. Anyway, every treadmill can match or surpass the intensity of outdoor running if you know how to press a button (most models can go up to 15%). Running outdoor is a fantastic way to fuck up your joints in the long run (no pun intended).

I was responding to your clip of a kid running on a treadmill with no incline. I didn't say you couldn't increase difficulty with an incline, only that running 12 mph on a flat treadmill is much easier than doing so on pavement.

But IME I do think around 2% incline makes it comparable from a difficulty standpoint. But running outside on a hard surface is different in other ways - I spent one winter running only indoors on a treadmill and first time I ran outside, I was much slower due to my calves not being used to bearing the impact on a hard surface.

Agree that regularly running long distances, say >5 miles is not great for most people's joints but it varies greatly by individual. Some folks are naturally efficient runners and others not so much. I've always had a neutral stride and fairly efficient form and I've been running outside for over 30 years with no issues. But these days I stick to low mileage under 3 miles and try to go as fast as possible. 20 minutes at my anaerobic threshold is my goal.

 

[Thorpedo28]

Why do people have to lie on the internet!

Also with treadmills the quality of their measurements are exceptionally questionable as has already been mentioned so I again reiterate my point getting non runners to run 12-15mph is ridiculous

12mph is still insanely fast for serious runners! That's a 5 min mile, that works out to be a 15:32 5k, people can pretend they can do that but at my local 5k Parkrun in its history there has been 5 people who have run under that time (271 events and 10,783 different runners).

15mph again is a 4 minute mile (The mens world record 3.43 & ladies is 4.12!)

I agree with the above comment that your sentiments are sound but your numbers are absurd.

 

[Noodles03]

I always wonder if you removed the high mileage roadwork that the Thais do, would they still have the stamina needed in Muay Thai match.

 

[aus101]

V02 max carries over, strength endurance doesn’t, so a distance swimmers muscles and joints will fatigue from the impact of running before a distance runners, even if they possess superior V02 maxes.

Grappling is extremely dynamic and uses every muscle in the body (particularly the pulling and gripping muscles). Unless you grapple (wrestle) to maintain this specific endurance no matter how much LISS or HIIT you do your muscles will tire quickly while grappling.

Certain strength endurance exercises that mimic the demands of grappling like loaded carries can help but without grappling (or whatever activity you are doing) your endurance will suffer at first.

Runners, with minimal strength/strength endurance, will blow out their muscles trying to keep up no matter how many miles they can run. How much grip strength is required in a marathon? The same amount required to do nothing at all..

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

so why does everybody want to "run for cardio" ??

they should grapple for cardio....

you dont have runners grappling for cardio...maybe they should??

Running is more relevant for standup. Not only for cardio but also leg and calf conditionning. Super important for staying bouncy and light on your feet.

 

[AtlSteel]

Learn to read, retard.

I didn't say 15 mph, I said 12-15 mph, 15 being the highest end.

So 12 for regular people who train, 15 for professional athletes.

If 12 mph is still unreachable for you, fuck off to a yoga forum for soccer moms or something.

Straight bullshido. 15 MPH is the pace for the current 5K record.

Learn to read, retard.

I didn't say 15 mph, I said 12-15 mph, 15 being the highest end.

So 12 for regular people who train, 15 for professional athletes.

If 12 mph is still unreachable for you, fuck off to a yoga forum for soccer moms or something.

You shouldn't get so mad when you get busted for talking out your ass. 15MPH! LOL

 

[StopDucking]

Straight bullshido. 15 MPH is the pace for the current 5K record.

You shouldn't get so mad when you get busted for talking out your ass. 15MPH! LOL

So your point is that it's impossible for a person to run at 15 mph?

No wait, you actually said the opposite, you just thought you didn't.

You're such a stupid fuck. I can tell you don't get to use your brain for a living. That's why your life has always been miserable and you will die miserably. How does it feel like to have less than 80 IQ?

I'm pro-life because I want to give everyone a chance but subhumans like you who have proven to be useless have to be executed after we've done experimenting on your body for scientific purposes.

 

[AtlSteel]

So your point is that it's impossible for a person to run at 15 mph?

No wait, you actually said the opposite, you just thought you didn't.

You're such a stupid fuck. I can tell you don't get to use your brain for a living. That's why your life has always been miserable and you will die miserably. How does it feel like to have less than 80 IQ?

I'm pro-life because I want to give everyone a chance but subhumans like you who have proven to be useless have to be executed after we've done experimenting on your body for scientific purposes.

When you grow up, you'll realize that it isn't cool to act like you know what you are talking about, and trying to recast what you said doesn't work. Here is what you said, "What you should do is maintain a 12-15 MPH speed. If you start getting comfortable, step it up a notch."

That's like saying:
What you should do is deadlift in the 500 -1,100 lb range.
What you should do is run 100m sprints in the 12-10 sec range.
You get the idea. 15MPH is world record pace and what you said indicates that you don't really know much about running.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

It's indeed hard enough to be useful as a workout, which is what you want. People are complaining that running is useless. The solution to make is not useless is to run fast.

But it's not that hard either. Here's a video of some random guy running 12 mph for 10 min. I could easily do it myself when I was in highschool and training 2-6 hrs a day.

12mph for 10 mn is doable by a random guy, but a trained random guy. If you think that any not-fat, healthy adult can do that without training for it I would suggest that you are mistaken.

EDIT: Wait I am going to retract my statement above. 12 mph is the equivalent of 3 minutes / Km, right? Meaning a 15mn 5K? Unless I am mistaken, the most hard-core runners I have known did around 18 mn 5K but I am not sure anymore.

I would have to try but I think it is very hard even for a fit person to run at that pace for 10 mn.

 

[ChickenBrother]

12mph for 10 mn is doable by a random guy, but a trained random guy. If you think that any not-fat, healthy adult can do that without training for it I would suggest that you are mistaken.

EDIT: Wait I am going to retract my statement above. 12 mph is the equivalent of 3 minutes / Km, right? Meaning a 15mn 5K? Unless I am mistaken, the most hard-core runners I have known did around 18 mn 5K but I am not sure anymore.

I would have to try but I think it is very hard even for a fit person to run at that pace for 10 mn.

12 mph is fast as shit and much faster than any non-elite runner can sustain in an outdoor run either on a track or a paved surface. 12 mph = 5 min mile = 15:32 5K time.

For context my fastest ever 5K time was 17:39. I did that as a 10th grade HS cross-country runner with very good but not elite running ability. That race got me a spot on the Varsity squad. 17:39 = 5:41 min/mile pace = 10.4 mph. And that was bottom level Varsity HS time for skinny kids that specialize and train only for 5K runs. When I was that fast I was BARELY able to squeeze out one 5 min mile = 12 mph for 5 minutes if I just went for broke over 1 mile.

After 11th grade I switched focus to grappling and strength training, but continued to run frequently for general conditioning. As a 160+ lbs adult, even with 5 days/week training runs geared towards recreational 5K's, I've never been able to break a 19:10 5K = 6:10 min/mile = 9.7 mph. I can tell you that running that fast in any public place (track, park, street), will make you 99% of the time running faster than anyone else in the area and usually much faster.

EDIT: I'll even amend and say that if you can sustainably run 10+ mph you will almost never, if ever be outrun in a public place during training. In the last 25 years doing training runs outdoors, I've never been outrun over the course I was running. I wear a HR monitor watch with GPS. Even doing training runs in Central Park in NYC (where there are many fast runners), 99% of the time I was faster along the course I was running. And the 1% of the time when there was some super fast asshole around, I would make it a point to haul ass, crank it up briefly to around 12 mph and pass his ass before hitting a fork in the road and turning a corner to go a different way, so he wouldn't see me panting and wheezing behind a tree LOL.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

12 mph is fast as shit and much faster than any non-elite runner can sustain in an outdoor run either on a track or a paved surface. 12 mph = 5 min mile = 15:32 5K time.

For context my fastest ever 5K time was 17:39. I did that as a 10th grade HS cross-country runner with very good but not elite running ability. That race got me a spot on the Varsity squad. 17:39 = 5:41 min/mile pace = 10.4 mph. And that was bottom level Varsity HS time for skinny kids that specialize and train only for 5K runs. When I was that fast I was BARELY able to squeeze out one 5 min mile = 12 mph for 5 minutes if I just went for broke over 1 mile.

After 11th grade I switched focus to grappling and strength training, but continued to run frequently for general conditioning. As a 160+ lbs adult, even with 5 days/week training runs geared towards recreational 5K's, I've never been able to break a 19:10 5K = 6:10 min/mile = 9.7 mph. I can tell you that running that fast in any public place (track, park, street), will make you 99% of the time running faster than anyone else in the area and usually much faster.

Thank you for confirming my intuition. Yeah your time is in range of the 18mn for 5K time that I mentioned for the best runners I know. But by best runners I mean legit, hardcore runners. A 15mn 5K is top bracket.
Therefore I call bullshit on the guy that said that the 12 mph for 10 mn is achievable by any random dude.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Thank you for confirming my intuition. Yeah your time is in range of the 18mn for 5K time that I mentioned for the best runners I know. But by best runners I mean legit, hardcore runners. A 15mn 5K is top bracket.
Therefore I call bullshit on the guy that said that the 12 mph for 10 mn is achievable by any random dude.

Yeah, 15 min 5K is <12 mph pace and that's into elite territory. That kind of speed over 5K will make you very competitive for college recruitment and would be by far the fastest time at any hobbyist level 5K race. It's close to world record pace over a marathon distance.

 

[FighterTwister]

You're in a very fixed movement pattern and can pace your breathing when you run. During a grappling exchange things are really chaotic and unpredictable, so you're forced to use nearly every muscle in your body in some capacity while having to explode or rest at certain times.

You may increase Vo2 max and stroke volume with steady state cardio but it isn't going to produce tons of localized changes to your muscle(especially your core or upper body) or teach you how to breath when you're scrambling to fend off takedowns.

Spot on.......... fear, panic, emotion breaks that cycle as the brain functions differently and breathing patterns change in applied muscle exertion and exhaustion setting on earlier than a paced run.

It takes time to adjust to a Zen state if you are not an experienced fighter.

Or once could put it like this.... Running (Slow Long Distance) vs Sprints (Fast Short Distance)

The approach and training is different if that makes any sense.

Breathing and relaxing under intense pressure is a discipline and vital for a pro fighter.

To go any deeper its about the human bodies fuel / energy system, for further research start here I guess :- https://sportssciencekaylahfink.weebly.com/aerobic-system.html