Who wins the democratic vote?

[hillelslovak87]

As long as it's for Real Americans. By the way, enjoy fighting for Bernie, your side is sabotaging him again like 2016.

The DNC, which is not my side (whatever that means), seems to be laying the groundwork to fuck him out of a second nomination, yes. I find that extremely distasteful, unethical and outright foolish.

That does nothing to somehow blandish the actions of Trump while in office, or the merits of his poorly thought out and reasoned arguments and policies.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

The question is whether Bernie can attract enough independents and swing voters. How many of these have that mental block about the word socialism? How many can't get past "big government"?

It’s a fair reservation tho. His ideas are extreme and moderates aren’t extreme types. A lot of moderates I know (myself being one of them) didn’t vote for Trump either.. and Trump isn’t as drastic a turn as Bernie.


Also, not sure where you are from but here in Illinois the Dems I know that are more traditional are afraid of Bernie’s policies and say they won’t support him. It’s weird that our anecdotal experiences are different in this regard -I guess that goes to show how vastly different the opinions are of him.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Hard to predict, but I do fear that Bernie is the weakest general-election candidate.

Anything specific that gives you this impression?

 

[Deleted member 499399]

What makes you think otherwise?

Lol good one. Now you’re it.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Anything specific that gives you this impression?

One of the few things we actually know about electability is that candidates perceived as being more moderate have an advantage. Also, Bernie has a lot of unpopular positions and has never faced a smear campaign (and thus he's likely more popular now than he will be later--unlike, say, Biden, who has already taken most of the hit he can be expected to take).

 

[ultramanhyata]

Also, Bernie has a lot of unpopular positions and has never faced a smear campaign (and thus he's likely more popular now than he will be later--unlike, say, Biden, who has already taken most of the hit he can be expected to take).

Jack in full gaslight mode...

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

One of the few things we actually know about electability is that candidates perceived as being more moderate have an advantage. Also, Bernie has a lot of unpopular positions and has never faced a smear campaign (and thus he's likely more popular now than he will be later--unlike, say, Biden, who has already taken most of the hit he can be expected to take).

I like this take (specifically the last part). It’s an interesting observation that I don’t think most people have thought about or brought up.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Jack in full gaslight mode...

From a large scale I think it’s a fair point atm

 

[Jack V Savage]

Jack in full gaslight mode...

Ugh. I'm guessing you disagree? You should learn to just say that. But note that in 2016, he was never really in the race. So Clinton knew that she'd have to keep on good terms and the GOP's interest was in stirring up dissension and that meant praising Bernie. This primary has also been very unity-themed, and has been very tame in terms of negative campaigning.

I like this take (specifically the last part). It’s an interesting observation that I don’t think most people have thought about or brought up.

I think in general, electability discussions tend to just be people listing reasons to think that their preferred candidates will win.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

I think in general, electability discussions tend to just be people listing reasons to think that their preferred candidates will win.

True. I prefer to approach it like a sports conversation and pick apart the strengths and weaknesses. You learn more that way.

 

[Sketch]

One of the few things we actually know about electability is that candidates perceived as being more moderate have an advantage. Also, Bernie has a lot of unpopular positions and has never faced a smear campaign (and thus he's likely more popular now than he will be later--unlike, say, Biden, who has already taken most of the hit he can be expected to take).

Jack, this is my advice to you free of charge. You've been had for over two (02) years now. Your opinions have gone from somewhat believable although still easily detected as troll posts if one reads in between the lines (A must when digesting anything you regurgitate on this forum) To the point that your own friends here, for years on end, call you out for trolling. This shtick worked in say, 2004, 2008, 2012 etc. At this point, it's going downhill fast, and this place looks to lose a decent provocateur in you.

 

[Jack V Savage]

True. I prefer to approach it like a sports conversation and pick apart the strengths and weaknesses. You learn more that way.

Good approach for all discussions, really.

And poor thinkers often give that away more when they talk about sports than when they talk about other things.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Nope.

Bernie v Trump becomes Socialism v Capitalism.

Trump will curb stomp Bernie.

Nobody is buying that shit anymore. They called Obama a socialist lmao. Nobody is afraid of these boogyman words. They're afraid of going broke from healthcare costs.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

Bernie wins the vote and the party fucks him and gives it to Biden. 2016 all over again.

Which is sad for democracy but great for MAGA.

I look forward to watching Trump annihilate Sleepy Joe.

 

[ultramanhyata]

From a large scale I think it’s a fair point atm

Only someone who hasn't been watching the multiple Obama and Clinton operatives rolled out on the MSM could possibly think Sanders isn't in the midst of a relentless, unprecedented smear campaign. Even the ghoul Hillary, herself, has personally and viciously smeared Bernie.

And those attacks are the ones coming from actual members of the democratic party. The attacks from the right have been ongoing since 2016 and, quite simply, could not get any worse.

At least they couldn't get any worse and still remain even tenuously tied to some bare semblance of reality. I suppose Trump could accuse Sanders of having been complicit in the assassination of JFK or something to that effect.

This whole "Bernie hasn't really been attacked yet" line of argument is a phony, DCCC talking point meant to undermine the fact that Sanders beats Trump in current head-to-head polling. And in light of the plethora of evidence proving the talking point absurd (the reverse blatantly being the case) it deserves to be met with little more than disdainful laughter.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

It’s a fair reservation tho. His ideas are extreme and moderates aren’t extreme types. A lot of moderates I know (myself being one of them) didn’t vote for Trump either.. and Trump isn’t as drastic a turn as Bernie.


Also, not sure where you are from but here in Illinois the Dems I know that are more traditional are afraid of Bernie’s policies and say they won’t support him. It’s weird that our anecdotal experiences are different in this regard -I guess that goes to show how vastly different the opinions are of him.

Most of his ideas are actually very mainstream. Things like UHC, paid maternity leave, cutting the military budget, less military interventions, increasing taxes on billionaires, doing more to curb climate change, legalizing marijuana, stopping mass incarceration, etc., are all very popular even with conservatives.

The only one that might be a progressives-only stance is letting incarcerated people vote. And maaaaaybe student loan forgiveness. That's it though.

And I'm from Texas, which is obviously pretty conservative. Might be the fact that my social circle is pretty left so every liberal I know either likes or loves Bernie.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Most of his ideas are actually very mainstream..

lmao no.. maybe ‘mainstream’ if you travel in those circles.


That’s like me saying it’s mainstream to want lower taxes, smaller government, extremely powerful military, closed/protected borders, less gun control regulations.. that’s only mainstream to certain groups of people.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Only someone who hasn't been watching the multiple Obama and Clinton operatives rolled out on the MSM could possibly think Sanders isn't in the midst of a relentless, unprecedented smear campaign. Even the ghoul Hillary, herself, has personally and viciously smeared Bernie.

And those attacks are the ones coming from actual members of the democratic party. The attacks from the right have been ongoing since 2016 and, quite simply, could not get any worse.

At least they couldn't get any worse and still remain even tenuously tied to some bare semblance of reality. I suppose Trump could accuse Sanders of having been complicit in the assassination of JFK or something to that effect.

This whole "Bernie hasn't really been attacked yet" line of argument is a phony, DCCC talking point meant to undermine the fact that Sanders beats Trump in current head-to-head polling. And in light of the plethora of evidence proving the talking point absurd (the reverse blatantly being the case) it deserves to be met with little more than disdainful laughter.

I get where you’re coming from, but I do see his point too. That stuff has been done on a smaller scale and only within that party. I think what he’s getting at is adding a whole other party for an entire campaign going after him too which didn’t need to happen last time because he didn’t get the nom (not to mention the Dems might also simultaneously still try to undermine him too during that campaign similar to how some Republicans tried to get out from under Trump after his nom).


I do think that changes it a little. The Conservatives didn’t have to campaign against him at all. And they’ll really go after his policies without throwing underhand pitches at them.


But again, that’s my take on what he meant.. I’ll let @Jack V Savage speak for himself tho if he feels like getting specific..

 

[Jack V Savage]

I get where you’re coming from, but I do see his point too. That stuff has been done on a smaller scale and only within that party. I think what he’s getting at is adding a whole other party for an entire campaign going after him too which didn’t need to happen last time because he didn’t get the nom (not to mention the Dems might also simultaneously still try to undermine him too during that campaign similar to how some Republicans tried to get out from under Trump after his nom).

I do think that changes it a little. The Conservatives didn’t have to campaign against him at all. And they’ll really go after his policies without throwing underhand pitches at them.

But again, that’s my take on what he meant.. I’ll let @Jack V Savage speak for himself tho if he feels like getting specific..

It's funny that Ultra doesn't just respond to me directly, and that he feels the need to impugn my motives rather than just make his point.

Anyway, the idea that anyone thinks that Bernie has been smeared at all (much less is in the midst of an "unprecedented smear campaign"!) IMO shows just how unprepared his followers are for what's to come if he wins the primary. Hillary had about two-thirds approval when the smear campaign started against her, and to this day, people (not just extreme righties) are convinced that her highly rated charity was some kind of corrupt front, that she regularly has political opponents murdered (murdered!), that she ran a child sex-trafficking ring, and generally that she was some kind of corrupt monster. A plurality of Republicans believed that Obama was not born in America and that there was a long-running conspiracy to suggest otherwise, a quarter of them thought that he was the Anti-Christ (that's not just me exaggerating how much he was hated--that's people who would tell pollsters that they believed he was the Anti-Christ), and 70% thought he was a socialist. And Bernie will be much, much easier to characterize that way. He genuinely does have a lot of unpopular positions, and there are scandals and attack avenues that have never been brought up because of the need for his primary opponents to play nice.

One Berniebot here said that Warren's representation of his (likely accurate) claim that a woman would have a harder time winning as "a woman can't win" was the most despicable campaign smear he'd ever seen or something to that effect. What's going to happen when the real war starts? I'll tell you now that I think a lot of people who are currently backing Bernie will ditch him (note that a lot of those people claimed to like Warren before she surged in the polls and started getting attacked).

But, yeah, Republicans wanted to sow discord on the left in 2016 and their approach was to say lots of nice things about Bernie and promote the CT that he was screwed. Conversely, Clinton's campaign didn't want to sow discord on their own side in 2016 so they also played nice with Bernie. It was an extremely clean primary, and he didn't get attacked by the other side. This time, it's similar. But if it goes to the wire in the primary or if Bernie wins the primary and faces a general, it's going to get turned way, way up. And he's not starting from a place of high popularity like other primary winners were (see my point about Clinton being at ~65% when she started getting smeared).

 

[BarryDillon]

It's funny that Ultra doesn't just respond to me directly, and that he feels the need to impugn my motives rather than just make his point.

Anyway, the idea that anyone thinks that Bernie has been smeared at all (much less is in the midst of an "unprecedented smear campaign"!) IMO shows just how unprepared his followers are for what's to come if he wins the primary. Hillary had about two-thirds approval when the smear campaign started against her, and to this day, people (not just extreme righties) are convinced that her highly rated charity was some kind of corrupt front, that she regularly has political opponents murdered (murdered!), that she ran a child sex-trafficking ring, and generally that she was some kind of corrupt monster. A plurality of Republicans believed that Obama was not born in America and that there was a long-running conspiracy to suggest otherwise, a quarter of them thought that he was the Anti-Christ (that's not just me exaggerating how much he was hated--that's people who would tell pollsters that they believed he was the Anti-Christ), and 70% thought he was a socialist. And Bernie will be much, much easier to characterize that way. He genuinely does have a lot of unpopular positions, and there are scandals and attack avenues that have never been brought up because of the need for his primary opponents to play nice.

One Berniebot here said that Warren's representation of his (likely accurate) claim that a woman would have a harder time winning as "a woman can't win" was the most despicable campaign smear he'd ever seen or something to that effect. What's going to happen when the real war starts? I'll tell you now that I think a lot of people who are currently backing Bernie will ditch him (note that a lot of those people claimed to like Warren before she surged in the polls and started getting attacked).

But, yeah, Republicans wanted to sow discord on the left in 2016 and their approach was to say lots of nice things about Bernie and promote the CT that he was screwed. Conversely, Clinton's campaign didn't want to sow discord on their own side in 2016 so they also played nice with Bernie. It was an extremely clean primary, and he didn't get attacked by the other side. This time, it's similar. But if it goes to the wire in the primary or if Bernie wins the primary and faces a general, it's going to get turned way, way up. And he's not starting from a place of high popularity like other primary winners were (see my point about Clinton being at ~65% when she started getting smeared).

This post is nonsense, Jack. Just pure tripe. Terrible analysis, no factual documentary backing, using nebulous phrases like "popularity". Are you talking about favorability rating there?

• Sanders has the highest favorable rating among potential Democratic primary voters (74%), but among those 52% who like both Biden and him, Biden leads by 20 points.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/cnn-poll-12-19-2019/index.html


I'm not sure what data you're referencing about Bernie, but he's has high favorability among Democrats right now.

Also, Warren accused him of being a sexist for political gain. Really clearly too. I don't know what other plausible explanation there is. All the data suggests it. Every piece of information confirms it.