Where to go to train BJJ at Olympic level intensity

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

And i brought a study performed in a top 5 judo country.



You dismiss Brazil as a non-example because they are not good at wrestling, that makes absolutely no sense.



But you completely dismiss Brazil because you have deep, first-hand experience on the training of the Brazilian olympic judo team?

That makes absolutely no sense, there are tons of countries that produce a lot of athletes in only one sport. Even Russia lacks in Judo a lot of times, they didnt got a single medal in the 2008 olympics in Judo.

What about the French? they suck at S&C because they cant produce elite wrestlers?



Unless you can bring specific evidence, by providing counter-evidence from Japan or a country that meets your required arbitrary criteria, then the Brazilian study is valid for the simple reason that Brazil is a top 5 judo country.

In fact why you dont do it? the study about Brazilian judokas show a lot of physical parameters that can be directly compared to studies done on judoka from other countries.

I'm trying to understand what is it that makes you so mad about questioning your example. You have to accept that people have different opinions. I have no intentions to go around in circles. If you have any time on your hands, please, come over to DF and I will personally take you to the coaches I am talking about and introduce you to the national BJJ champion for absolute BB division 2013, Jacson Correia, who came to train in my gym in order to get a proper conditioning and sparring against (quoting here) "Olympic level training". And for the record, I don't train Olympic teams. It's just that my student won silver in the sambo PanAms last year (the first Mexican to win silver in sambo in any international competition) and planning to double it this year as well. The rest are guys who normally win the nationals.
Brazil do not have proper S&C program for its athletes. Period.
In judo you can win with a very good technic. That's a fact.
Can you win a medal in wrestling without been at least a level about the rest in your country, physiologically? I don think that's even possible.
You claim that elite judokas are the same as the average practitioners? I call bullshit.

 

[emax]

I'd say the chances someone from Bulgaria makes it to UFC successfully, would be through his combat sambo background (Blagoi Ivanov is fighting tomorrow night in the Bellator HW finals).
As far as China, I think the popularity of the sport there is on a level that people are really not interested into transitioning. Joel is doing great job with RUFF and they do have some wrestlers there (my friend Marko Kosev, 4 times combat sambo world champion is fighting in RUFF on 7th of June, against a Chinese wrestler).
And the benefits for Olympic caliber wrestler to be on the team are a lot greater than fighting MMA, so I'd have to say that if any of them switches, it would be after his prime.

That helped for a lot of what I asked. A few things thought: In China, are most of these grapplers who could transition to MMA indeed from Inner Mongolia or Xinjiang as I suspected? Second, I did mention Kazakhstan and was curious as to why your answer did not also address that nation specifically too; are grappling sports just not viable enough here to have guys who could enter the UFC? And also, I presume your experience is by and large with men so you could only answer it really sufficiently with men, is that correct?

 

[Rod1]

I'm trying to understand what is it that makes you so mad about questioning your example. You have to accept that people have different opinions. I have no intentions to go around in circles. If you have any time on your hands, please, come over to DF and I will personally take you to the coaches I am talking about and introduce you to the national BJJ champion for absolute BB division 2013, Jacson Correia, who came to train in my gym in order to get a proper conditioning and sparring against (quoting here) "Olympic level training". And for the record, I don't train Olympic teams. It's just that my student won silver in the sambo PanAms last year (the first Mexican to win silver in sambo in any international competition) and planning to double it this year as well. The rest are guys who normally win the nationals.
Brazil do not have proper S&C program for its athletes. Period.
In judo you can win with a very good technic. That's a fact.
Can you win a medal in wrestling without been at least a level about the rest in your country, physiologically? I don think that's even possible.
You claim that elite judokas are the same as the average practitioners? I call bullshit.

Nobody claimed average practitioners, if you read the article it compares to judo A athletes to B and C athletes, they are all still training judo a lot.

Also by definition the way Brazilian A team train is olympic intensity training, for the simple reason that Brazil is a top 5 judo country. So is France.

Nonetheless, you can easily disprove this by going through the data obtaining the physical parameters of Brazilian team and comparing to the physical parameters of other top 5 judo countries.

Otherwise is just hearsay.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

That helped for a lot of what I asked. A few things thought: In China, are most of these grapplers who could transition to MMA indeed from Inner Mongolia or Xinjiang as I suspected? Second, I did mention Kazakhstan and was curious as to why your answer did not also address that nation specifically too; are grappling sports just not viable enough here to have guys who could enter the UFC? And also, I presume your experience is by and large with men so you could only answer it really sufficiently with men, is that correct?

Sorry, I missed Kazakhstan. I believe the situation is similar to Bulgaria. Wrestlers need a longer time period to transition to MMA, than combat sambo practitioners. Kazakhstan have very good combat sambo guys, so I'd say that's where a future presence in UFC could come from.
I think most of the top athletes in combat sport in China are coming from Inner Mongolia. Xinjiang has good wrestlers, but there is the ethnic issue as well... I'd say, Chinese prefer Han people to represent the country.
And yes, I haven't worked with women much.

 

[emax]

Sorry, I missed Kazakhstan. I believe the situation is similar to Bulgaria. Wrestlers need a longer time period to transition to MMA, than combat sambo practitioners. Kazakhstan have very good combat sambo guys, so I'd say that's where a future presence in UFC could come from.
I think most of the top athletes in combat sport in China are coming from Inner Mongolia. Xinjiang has good wrestlers, but there is the ethnic issue as well... I'd say, Chinese prefer Han people to represent the country.
And yes, I haven't worked with women much.

Might it be a religious difference too? I think the best wrestlers in Inner Mongolia would be, well, Mongols to a greater extent than they would be Han Chinese. Mongols and Han Chinese are distinctively different and historically have been in some particularly vicious wars with each other, I had thought (granted I am no expert in that specific history).

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Nobody claimed average practitioners, if you read the article it compares to judo A athletes to B and C athletes, they are all still training judo a lot.

Also by definition the way Brazilian A team train is olympic intensity training, for the simple reason that Brazil is a top 5 judo country. So is France.

Nonetheless, you can easily disprove this by going through the data obtaining the physical parameters of Brazilian team and comparing to the physical parameters of other top 5 judo countries.

Otherwise is just hearsay.

Look, if you insist to have the final word in this conversation, you can have it, if that makes you happy.
It's either that, or you just don't understand what I am stating here.
And you don't need to take my word for it.
As I said, you are welcome any day to come and see it by your self.
I don't know what level you consider your self, but I can find you level A athletes in all of the following sports: judo, sambo, wrestling, BJJ, grappling and combat sambo. You are a Mexican, right? I will be more than happy to present you to the national Mexican (or Brazilian, taking in consideration that Jacson Correia is Brazilian) champions of those sports, so you could easily compare the intensity by your self.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Might it be a religious difference too? I think the best wrestlers in Inner Mongolia would be, well, Mongols to a greater extent than they would be Han Chinese. Mongols and Han Chinese are distinctively different and historically have been in some particularly vicious wars with each other, I had thought (granted I am no expert in that specific history).

I have no idea. But it's easier to pass a Mongolian for Han, than Xinjiang guys, that's for sure.

 

[Rod1]

Look, if you insist to have the final word in this conversation, you can have it, if that makes you happy.
It's either that, or you just don't understand what I am stating here.
And you don't need to take my word for it.
As I said, you are welcome any day to come and see it by your self.
I don't know what level you consider your self, but I can find you level A athletes in all of the following sports: judo, sambo, wrestling, BJJ, grappling and combat sambo. You are a Mexican, right? I will be more than happy to present you to the national Mexican (or Brazilian, taking in consideration that Jacson Correia is Brazilian) champions of those sports, so you could easily compare the intensity by your self.

Insist on what? that Brazilians are good at olympic judo? a single google search can asses to that.

 

[Kalma]

Where is DF ?

 

[Rod1]

Where is DF ?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Insist on what? that Brazilians are good at olympic judo? a single google search can asses to that.

Insisting on having the final word
Send me a PM next time you are in DF and please demonstrate on my athletes that they are no different that level B or level C.
I will video it for future reference.
Forget Brazil, let's stick to what we can prove with a simple experiment locally. Hell, I'll throw in a few guys from the national judo selection as well. You are welcome to prove your point any day.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Where is DF ?

 

[emax]

Now I feel all bad for starting a sort of flame war, although I am glad that numerous posters here, Uchi Mata, Dirty Holt, Silverblur, Onq,Supersuperrambo and Rod1 have at least been very helpful in addressing the initial questions.

 

[Rod1]

Insisting on having the final word
Send me a PM next time you are in DF and please demonstrate on my athletes that they are no different that level B or level C.
I will video it for future reference.
Forget Brazil, let's stick to what we can prove with a simple experiment locally. Hell, I'll throw in a few guys from the national judo selection as well. You are welcome to prove your point any day.

I would probably die just by being in Mexico City.

But since you are at it, the B team of Brazil wipes the floor with the A team of Mexico with the exception of Nabor Castillo which is already an exceptional athlete who could had gone to pro soccer. Does he still trains Judo?

And there is no point to prove, Brazil is a judo powerhouse, therefore their A team is olympic level athlete, if that means that Judo is not a physically demanding sport, so be it, that means judo requires less physical talents and more judo talent.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I would probably die just by being in Mexico City.

But since you are at it, the B team of Brazil wipes the floor with the A team of Mexico with the exception of Nabor Castillo which is already an exceptional athlete who could had gone to pro soccer. Does he still trains Judo?

And there is no point to prove, Brazil is a judo powerhouse, therefore their A team is olympic level athlete, if that means that Judo is not a physically demanding sport, so be it, that means judo requires less physical talents and more judo talent.

Japan wipes the flgoor with Brazil AND wrestling. And they do use special cpnditioning. The A level there is a lot stronger and faster than B level. So whats your point again?
I will say it for third time: come an
d see how you will do again your countryman.
Im also going to the sambo worlds in Japan, this November, so you are free to join me and we can compare first hand their A and B teams.
What do you say?

 

[emax]

Japan wipes the flgoor with Brazil AND wrestling. And they do use special cpnditioning. The A level there is a lot stronger and faster than B level. So whats your point again?
I will say it for third time: come an
d see how you will do again your countryman.
Im also going to the sambo worlds in Japan, this November, so you are free to join me and we can compare first hand their A and B teams.
What do you say?

This does make me sort of curious, is there a reason MMA is not attracting these grapplers from Japan the way it is with grapplers from Brazil? Because at the moment, Brazil is running rings around Japan when it comes to MMA success. Even guys like Okami and Hioki have been completebusts relative tot he most successful Brazilians in MMA [Horiguchi might change this but he is primary a striker as opposed to a grappler]. Is that because Japanese grapplers only come to MMA when they are past their prime to start with?

 

[Rod1]

Japan wipes the flgoor with Brazil AND wrestling. And they do use special cpnditioning. The A level there is a lot stronger and faster than B level. So whats your point again?
I will say it for third time: come an
d see how you will do again your countryman.
Im also going to the sambo worlds in Japan, this November, so you are free to join me and we can compare first hand their A and B teams.
What do you say?

And France wipes the floor with Japan whose medals both in judo and wrestling comes from the women mostly, the japanese judo team hasnt been relevant for a while.

Do you have access to the physical tests of both team A and B? how did team A compared in the Cooper test against team B? in the weight room? throws per minute?

The hell, i lifted more than Ramon Enrique Flores back in 2009 when he was already in the A team in judo, and he was competing for ITSON in the universiade.

 

[Rod1]

Here is an article that talks about Canadian judo team.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...l_profiles_of_the_Canadian_National_Judo_Team

The original article i pointed also has some values for japanese, polish and US team

 

[Rod1]

So ill make it more specific.

In which physical parameters (and which test was used) do you see a marked difference between A athletes and B and C athletes.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

And France wipes the floor with Japan whose medals both in judo and wrestling comes from the women mostly, the japanese judo team hasnt been relevant for a while.

Do you have access to the physical tests of both team A and B? how did team A compared in the Cooper test against team B? in the weight room? throws per minute?

The hell, i lifted more than Ramon Enrique Flores back in 2009 when he was already in the A team in judo, and he was competing for ITSON in the universiade.

So now Japan is irelevant?!
Sorry, I cant follow your logic.
Any kind of tests could be done, if you cover the expenses, of course.
I could list eye- hand coordinatio and reaction time as one of the aspects Japanese are training, or ypu think S&C is only weightlifting?
Anyway, have fun, I have a national team to prepare.