What skillset is needed to beat the top-level Dagestanis in their prime?

SovereignPhantom said:
Yeah seeing Dustin implement the leg control has been really entertaining.

And yeah there's no doubt that the best Dagestanis are very well-rounded, but they all have holes in areas, Khabib got hit quite a bit, he just had a block for a head and a thick neck. Islam and Umar don't have Khabib's top control. Yet no one has been able to match them even when they lose control in one area. They're just so adaptable it can be really frustrating when you're rooting for another fighter or just excited to see a potential upset lol.
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Khabib did not get hit very much at all, it just stands out when he did cause it was so rare. 1.75 significant strikes per minute taken is very low.

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NoBiasJustMMA said:
Khabib did not get hit very much at all, it just stands out when he did cause it was so rare. 1.75 significant strikes per minute taken is very low.

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I stand corrected, I still say he's been hit by some heavy hitters and those instances didn't ever seem to deter him. Conor was probably too depleted from the wrestling in round 1 but Justin, Edson, and Dustin tagged him with shots that at least would have stunned a lot of other guys, even if they didn't land a ton. I remember Gaethje particularly landing some pretty hard punches in round 1 of their fight.
 
jko1355 said:
The thing is.. we really have never seen them compete against actual wrestlers... only Strikers and BJJ guys... I have no idea how well they would do against an actual wrestler.... and don't say Justin Gaetchje dude hasn't wrestled in 10 years...

I think the reason they have been so successful, is because Dana White pretty much stopped signing wrestlers that wrestle due to the fights being boring, OTHER than the Dagestanis.. because khabib had a huge muslim following that stuck around for their muslim fighters.... We don't have anyone in these division like prime: Diego Sanchez, Sean Sherk, Fitch, Rick Story, Benson Henderson, Gray Maynard, Frankie Edgar, Clay Guida, Josh Koscheck, Chad Mendes, Michael Chandler, Eddie Alvarez, Urijah Faber, TJ Dillashaw, etc. we have like zero good wrestlers...

The only wrestlers at LW are Gamrot and Tsarukyan, and one is an okay polish wrestler (Gamrot) and one basically wrestled in highschool did some construction then started mma (Tsarukyan) neither are accomplished at all...

at 135 the best wrestlers were Aljo, Cejudo, and Merab... Aljo Left and Cejudo is 125 years old.. only Merab has a chance of competing with Umar in that division unless someone gets a lucky KO...

The Dagestanis get to basically be the Jon Fitches of the UFC without anyone who can wrestle to stop them and I truly believe that is intentional by the UFC, because I know D1 wrestlers are training mma...

At least Islam and Khabib would eventually get the finish more often than the old school grinders.
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Yeah seeing you list out past wrestlers definitely highlights the dearth of them today. But considering Muslim countries don't buy PPV's, do you think the strategy was some long game to get bigger deals in UAE and Saudi?

It's not like early Khabib or Islam seemed unstoppable, even if they were imposing. Wondering what would cause the UFC to place such a large bet on those guys over other talented wrestlers.
 
If you combine Sandhagen's mustache, with Volk's rugby training, and Adriano Martin's hand speed... I think you've got the formula.
 
SovereignPhantom said:
I stand corrected, I still say he's been hit by some heavy hitters and those instances didn't ever seem to deter him. Conor was probably too depleted from the wrestling in round 1 but Justin, Edson, and Dustin tagged him with shots that at least would have stunned a lot of other guys, even if they didn't land a ton. I remember Gaethje particularly landing some pretty hard punches in round 1 of their fight.
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From what I remember only Dustin and Justin hit him with good shots he was able to see them coming though and rolled really well with them. He was too close for the kick from Barbosa to land correctly, it landed with like the back of his thigh.
 
you'd need someone with similar level of training

its just like soccer/football. you can't just have a kid start playing in highschool and expect him to be the next ronaldo or messi.
 
First of all, the fight gotta take place outside of Abu Dhabi, where they're free of weight making and probably other obligations that are in place in areas with athletic commissions. Second, you gotta have a full camp and not be from a lower weight class. Third, if you're not undersized and had a full camp, good luck making the other side show up. Otherwise, you gotta deal with takedowns. You gotta be good either at defending TDs, sweeping or quickly getting up and not gassing after being taken down once. Inability to control where the fight goes would erode their confidence. Also, they usually don't expect to be taken down themselves, but Tibau actually took Nurmagomedov down. It can surprise them for sure but you gotta know what you're doing here as Poirier guillotine isn't really worth it.
 
Fight Professor said:
Bobby on feet and prime Palhares on the ground.
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that won't be enough. Khabib would slice palhares like hot knife through butter, and so would Islam.

To beat them, have crazy stamina and aggression and excellent defensive wrestling, and go forward to land a kill shot.
 
One thing I remember thinking repeatedly during dustin/Islam is that Dustin fought off Islam's take downs several times and usually fighters give up on the takedown attempts after a handful of failed tries. I remember watching and waiting for the 1 time that Dustin couldn't give 100% max effort to avoid takedown because it just felt like Dustin was gonna slip up before Islam gave up on the TD.

I think that intangible of the elite dagastanis is part of what elevates them.

Also, I don't out chimaev in the same category as Islam.
 
Great TDD and striking and a very good clinch game or the ability to avoid the clinch.
 
kingmob6 said:
that won't be enough. Khabib would slice palhares like hot knife through butter, and so would Islam.

To beat them, have crazy stamina and aggression and excellent defensive wrestling, and go forward to land a kill shot.
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I don't know...Palhares was big enough to do decently at MW (he was a monster at 170) and had that retard strength (probably with some PED help). He submitted guys like Fitch and Shields (his only sub loss), though Jake said he was fighting very dirty which might have changed the outcome. They might beat him, and Islam could definitely win a stand-up fight if he could defend TDs. Khabib probably could, but we never really saw him sprawl-n-brawl an entire fight. IIRC, Palhares had pretty nasty leg kicks but not much else standing.

They may also do the Alan Belcher thing, though Belcher is big enough to fight at HW now in bareknuckle. Nate Marquadt also slipped out of a leg lock attempt and beat Palhares half to death, but Palhares wasn't fighting back and thought the ref had told them to stand up or something.

It would be the biggest challenge either of them faced in defending submissions, including Oliveira for Islam.
 
SovereignPhantom said:
Obviously I'm aware Islam has been KO'd and Khabib arguably lost to Tibau early on in his UFC career.

And I realize Khabib's team are exceptionally prepared, don't do short notice fights, etc.

But skill-wise, what will it take to beat them? Volk and Dustin both dropped or stunned Islam, Cory landed a really clean left yesterday that definitely hurt Umar. Yet this wasn't enough to win even with their exceptional grappling defense.

Arman has shown that offensive wrestling isn't enough to win (though, yes, he also fought short notice).

I'm thinking someone will need power in their hands and amazing offensive AND defensive grappling to stand a chance at winning more than just the rare lucky punch. But it just doesn't seem like this combo exists yet.
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Khabib "arguably losing" to Tibua is probably the most fake narrative in UFC history LOL.
 
Just be Bobby Knucks.

robert-whittaker-ikram-aliskerov.gif
 
mkt said:
I don't know...Palhares was big enough to do decently at MW (he was a monster at 170) and had that retard strength (probably with some PED help). He submitted guys like Fitch and Shields (his only sub loss), though Jake said he was fighting very dirty which might have changed the outcome. They might beat him, and Islam could definitely win a stand-up fight if he could defend TDs. Khabib probably could, but we never really saw him sprawl-n-brawl an entire fight. IIRC, Palhares had pretty nasty leg kicks but not much else standing.

They may also do the Alan Belcher thing, though Belcher is big enough to fight at HW now in bareknuckle. Nate Marquadt also slipped out of a leg lock attempt and beat Palhares half to death, but Palhares wasn't fighting back and thought the ref had told them to stand up or something.

It would be the biggest challenge either of them faced in defending submissions, including Oliveira for Islam.
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was referring to "palhares" level bjj guy at LW, not at MW, since that was a hypothetical fighter combo.
 
stop signing bums. this is one of UFC's weakest eras in terms of having a deep pool of talent. the Dagestanis are good, but they're not being tested by the world's best. i mean the ACTUAL best, i don't mean whatever guys UFC signs. they get preferential treatment, and they rarely stay active. make them fight a busy schedule and don't allow them to pick who they fight and i guarantee you they will take Ls. the problem is every time they get a match they don't like all of a sudden they get an injury or it's Ramadan, or his wife's table cloth fell off during weigh-ins and it's Haram. they just have a very opportunistic style of waiting for the right time. Floyd Mayweather-esque if you will.
 
Hassan Mouzine said:
the wrestlers you just mentioned.....ALL OF THEM are way worse at wrestling and overall grappling than the likes of Islam and Khabib. the narrative that they never fight wrestlers is flawed. the names you mention dont stand a chance.

they are inferrior grapplers to some of these Dagestani's (not all of them of course)
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Don't misunderstand me... for one different eras most of the wrestlers I mentioned suck at mma in today's world but the dagestanis haven't faced like Any wrestlers with a grappling game plan like none ever..

P.s. saying they are all way better than Prime Cejudo at wrestling is the dumbest take I have ever heard.... then Umar, Khabib, and Islam should have gotten a gold at the olympics... literally that's shocking to say...
 
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I think Volk, GSP, Jon Jones, Aldo would do well. They are all timers though. In prime and at the right weight class.

Some guys like Holloway have never been dominated on the mat. Standing he's great. He might do well.

Frankie Edgar is a guy with good enough TDD and scrambling that I could see him doing OK.

Cejudo.

Maybe Yoel.

If you aren't crazy strong and don't have fantastic wrestling/grappling I think you are basically screwed.
 
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