WAR ROOM LOUNGE V22: Cult 45

[Higus]

There's no substantive argument. She said she heard a story about a distant NA ancestor, and claimed NA status on that basis in a couple of settings. Some people claimed she was lying about having heard the story. Most of us believed she heard it but thought the story was wrong. Turned out that the story was true (and BTW, lots of misreading of the story). Some people are now saying that she had claimed or implied that she was full-blooded NA and thus was lying. Apparently, they're trying to claim that I'm lying because ... I'm not exactly sure. Because I'm not going along with the second story, I think.

Claiming she lied would seem to imply she knowingly distorted the truth, which doesn't seem to be the case. You can argue that she was gullible at worst.
I don't know how you would even prove that she lied about being told she was part NA. If you want to make a case about her being generally untrustworthy for whatever reasons, then state your case.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Claiming she lied would seem to imply she knowingly distorted the truth, which doesn't seem to be the case.

When confronted on her claims of minority status in a couple professional directories she said she put that because she was hoping to (somehow) attract other folks with similar roots. To expand her social circle in the direction of Native Americans. She said she made no connections over the years and stopped listing herself as a minority, claiming to realize those directories were not well-suited for the purpose.

So if she wasn't knowingly distorting the truth then why change the listing just because fellow Native Americans didn't come calling? Why say she did it to make friends instead of saying that it's simply what she thought to be the truth? People can decide what they want as to how important it is and how likely her claim to minority status was made in good faith. But the fact remains she made that claim more than once over a period of years.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Claiming she lied would seem to imply she knowingly distorted the truth, which doesn't seem to be the case. You can argue that she was gullible at worst.
I don't know how you would even prove that she lied about being told she was part NA. If you want to make a case about her being generally untrustworthy for whatever reasons, then state your case.

It's pretty obvious she wasn't lying about her family history considering it is corroborated by several family members, one of which published a native american cookbook, ffs.

The worst that can be said about her is that her dna test indicates in retrospect she never should have called herself NA 25 years ago, and she hasn't apologized to real NA's who claim to be offended by a (what appears to be completely honest) mistake.

 

[HereticBD]

Claiming she lied would seem to imply she knowingly distorted the truth, which doesn't seem to be the case. You can argue that she was gullible at worst.
I don't know how you would even prove that she lied about being told she was part NA. If you want to make a case about her being generally untrustworthy for whatever reasons, then state your case.

Her reasons for believing she was NA isn't what I'm arguing. Its fair enough to assume she was just ignorant and went with it, whenever it suited her fancy.

What Jack is trying to claim is that she never ever claimed to be native. Ever. Only that she believed she had some distant ancestry, but never used it to portray herself as NA. That is what I'm taking issue with. Jack is trying to minimize what she actually did. She did call herself NA on official school documents, and did call herself Cherokee in a cook book. Jack is trying to insinuate that that doesn't really count as her claiming to be NA. Which of course, is ridiculous.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Claiming she lied would seem to imply she knowingly distorted the truth, which doesn't seem to be the case. You can argue that she was gullible at worst.

The whole thing is incredibly stupid and an obvious bad-faith effort to change the narrative (like how people, including the entire MSM, pretended to be gravely concerned with information security in 2016 and then completely forgot about that after the election--notice how this didn't get any traction). She was a mega-nerd from Oklahoma who thought that it was cool that she had a NA ancestor, that it added some exoticism to her story. She didn't claim to have any more blood than it turned out that she did have.

 

[Higus]

When confronted on her claims of minority status in a couple professional directories she said she put that because she was hoping to (somehow) attract other folks with similar roots. To expand her social circle in the direction of Native Americans. She said she made no connections over the years and stopped listing herself as a minority, claiming to realize those directories were not well-suited for the purpose.

So if she wasn't knowingly distorting the truth then why change the listing just because fellow Native Americans didn't come calling? Why say she did it to make friends instead of saying that it's simply what she thought to be the truth? People can decide what they want as to how important it is and how likely her claim to minority status was made in good faith. But the fact remains she made that claim more than once over a period of years.

I'm really trying to understand your pov on this, but I don't see how you interpret that as her lying.

 

[Jack V Savage]

What Jack is trying to claim is that she never ever claimed to be native.

Let's not lie, OK? What Jack is claiming (no trying needed) is that she claimed that the basis of her NA status was a distant ancestor. If you can find any example of her claiming to be full-blooded NA, I will retract (that would still be an honest mistake on my part, as I sincerely believe--still--that she never claimed that).

Meanwhile, it is a fact that the scrofulous liar IngaVovchanchin claimed that Warren completely made up the story that she had heard she had a distant NA ancestor, and she still hasn't apologized.

 

[HereticBD]

Let's not lie, OK? What Jack is claiming (no trying needed) is that she claimed that the basis of her NA status was a distant ancestor. If you can find any example of her claiming to be full-blooded NA, I will retract (that would still be an honest mistake on my part, as I sincerely believe that she never claimed that).

Elizabeth Warren: Cherokee

- Pow Wow Chow


I'm pretty sure that's her claiming to be Cherokee, Jack. Maybe it was an editorial decision though . Maybe the editor felt that "1/1024th Cherokee" just didn't sound right.

 

[Higus]

Her reasons for believing she was NA isn't what I'm arguing. Its fair enough to assume she was just ignorant and went with it, whenever it suited her fancy.

What Jack is trying to claim is that she never ever claimed to be native. Ever. Only that she believed she had some distant ancestry, but never used it to portray herself as NA. That is what I'm taking issue with. Jack is trying to minimize what she actually did. She did call herself NA on official school documents, and did call herself Cherokee in a cook book. Jack is trying to insinuate that that doesn't really count as her claiming to be NA. Which of course, is ridiculous.

I mean, do you see how convoluted this argument is at this point? You aren't arguing that Warren lied, and you aren't even arguing if Jack lied at this point. I get that being able to chalk up a "win" against Jack is probably a big accomplishment to some folks around here, but the basis of your argument is really splitting hairs here.

 

[Final Rehab]

Well I think we can all agree that Pow Wow Chow is a pretty ridiculous name for a NA cookbook.

I'm trying to think of a similarly ridiculous idea for a Southern cookbook to honor my ancestors. So far I've come up with Let Cleetus Feed Us, featuring recipes that utilize Pabst Blue Ribbon as an ingredient.

 

[Higus]

The whole thing is incredibly stupid and an obvious bad-faith effort to change the narrative (like how people, including the entire MSM, pretended to be gravely concerned with information security in 2016 and then completely forgot about that after the election--notice how this didn't get any traction). She was a mega-nerd from Oklahoma who thought that it was cool that she had a NA ancestor, that it added some exoticism to her story. She didn't claim to have any more blood than it turned out that she did have.

Yeah, his unsecured smartphone would be a huge security scandal in any other administration.

 

[HereticBD]

I mean, do you see how convoluted this argument is at this point? You aren't arguing that Warren lied, and you aren't even arguing if Jack lied at this point. I get that being able to chalk up a "win" against Jack is probably a big accomplishment to some folks around here, but the basis of your argument is really splitting hairs here.

No, I am arguing that Jack is lying. Jack is lying about her never claiming to be Native. He's doing this to minimize what she did, and desperately playing some game of semantics, where she never outright stated that she was 100% Native, to justify it. If it was a Republican who got caught doing the same thing, he'd be calling them the most dishonest, immoral person on the planet, who should probably kill themselves.

I know you gotta stick up for dear leader and all, but Jack so obviously lying here, for completely partisan reasons.

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

I'm peachy. You look a little yellow bud.

This ain't my first rodeo. I'll watch myself. Wouldnt want you crying when I leave too

 

[HereticBD]

Let Cleetus Feed Us

I chuckled.

 

[Higus]

No, I am arguing that Jack is lying. Jack is lying about her never claiming to be Native. He's doing this to minimize what she did, and desperately playing some game of semantics, where she never outright stated that she was 100% Native, to justify it. If it was a Republican who got caught doing the same thing, he'd be calling them the most dishonest, immoral person on the planet, who should probably kill themselves.

I know you gotta stick up for dear leader and all, but Jack so obviously lying here, for completely partisan reasons.

lol that you think I have to stick up for Jack when you are part of a dogpile arguing over a nothingburger. Show me where he claimed that she was 100% native.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I'm really trying to understand your pov on this, but I don't see how you interpret that as her lying.

My pov is simple. She claimed to be a minority in a couple instances and cited her motivation as wanting to expand her social circle in a specific direction. She stopped making that claim she says because it wasn't an appropriate use of those resources. Those are facts.

My opinion is had she felt her claim to being a minority was whole-heartedly accurate then she likely wouldn't have stopped making it for her stated reason. She also would have likely made that claim more consistently throughout her life. Don't you think? So I interpret that as her distorting the truth. Sometimes she said she was a minority but most times she said she wasn't. You think she believes both to be equally true?

You can decide if that's lying. You can decide if you care. I personally don't give a fuck, so it doesn't bother me to acknowledge the facts that are reflecting poorly on her, nor do I feel the need to distort them to make it sound worse than it is.

 

[HereticBD]

Show me where he claimed that she was 100% native.

You sound confused, and don't even know what the argument is. All you know, is that you're on Jack's side.

 

[Jack V Savage]

My pov is simple. She claimed to be a minority in a couple instances and cited her motivation as wanting to expand her social circle in a specific direction. She stopped making that claim she says because it wasn't an appropriate use of those resources. Those are facts.

Other than the fact that it's a total irrelevant distraction, what I find annoying is how the character of the discussion changed after she was proved right in the original argument.

Originally, she had claimed that the basis of her claim to be a minority was family stories of having a distant NA ancestor. She was accused by many Republicans (including in this forum) of lying about having heard that (that is, of making it up from whole cloth). Then she took a test (after much prodding) and proved that she actually was a small part NA, as she'd previously claimed. I think most people who had been following the story thought, "oh shit, burn on the naysayers." But then after like a day, the whole thing shifted to, "well, she's not full NA/she's not a tribal citizen." But she'd never claimed either of those things! In fact, she'd previously explicitly disavowed them. So it's like, WTF? This is why people hate politics.

 

[Higus]

My pov is simple. She claimed to be a minority in a couple instances and cited her motivation as wanting to expand her social circle in a specific direction. She stopped making that claim she says because it wasn't an appropriate use of those resources. Those are facts.

My opinion is had she felt her claim to being a minority was whole-heartedly accurate then she likely wouldn't have stopped making it for her stated reason. She also would have likely made that claim more consistently throughout her life. Don't you think? So I interpret that as her distorting the truth. Sometimes she said she was a minority but most times she said she wasn't. You think she believes both to be equally true?

You can decide if that's lying. You can decide if you care. I personally don't give a fuck, so it doesn't bother me to acknowledge the facts that are reflecting poorly on her, nor do I feel the need to distort them to make it sound worse than it is.

My personal opinion is that it is not a lie and it does not matter.

The bolded part is where I think the argument I'd challenge:

My opinion is had she felt her claim to being a minority was whole-heartedly accurate then she likely wouldn't have stopped making it for her stated reason. She also would have likely made that claim more consistently throughout her life. Don't you think?

This is conjecture. Let me offer another interpretation...

I haven't done the research to know if she's made the claim consistently through her life, BUT I can imagine that if it did come up in conversation, a lot of times it would have been something like this:

Person: What ethnicity are you?
Warren: Mostly white, although I have some Native American ancestors
Person: lol you aren't Native American. Prove it.

I mean, that's basically been the right wing reaction since she got into national prominence, and likely before. It would be tiresome to have to defend that whenever it came up, so I could see anyone just not mentioning it most of the time unless there was some context where it made sense to bring it up.
Granted, this is conjecture on my part, but if my background was scrutinized every time it came up, I would probably stop bringing it up if there wasn't a reason to mention it. It wouldn't be because I don't believe my background, but rather a preliminary reaction to other people's challenges, especially at a moment in time when I didn't have evidence to back up my claims.

 

[Higus]

You sound confused, and don't even know what the argument is. All you know, is that you're on Jack's side.

I am confused, because your argument makes no sense.
Break this down for me:
1. EW claims that she is part NA
2. JVS claims that she said she is part NA
3. DNA test proves that she actually is some small part NA
Your claim: "Jack is lying about her never claiming to be Native". Where is the lie?