WAR ROOM LOUNGE V22: Cult 45

[SBJJ]

5 posters in the WR are the only people left in America defending her on this.

It wasn’t that huge a thing. Get over it and pick your battles.

 

[HereticBD]

I am confused, because your argument makes no sense.
Break this down for me:
1. EW claims that she is part NA
2. JVS claims that she said she is part NA
3. DNA test proves that she actually is some small part NA
Your claim: "Jack is lying about her never claiming to be Native". Where is the lie?

*sigh*

She claimed to be NA no less than three times on official documents, and in a cook book. Not "part Native", not "1/1024th native", NATIVE, and even defined herself as Cherokee. Jack is trying to make it seem like she only ever claimed to have some distant relative, and never once officially claimed to be native.

You already know this though, because I already said it, and you're essentially just cheerleading at this point, so whatever.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Other than the fact that it's a total irrelevant distraction, what I find annoying is how the character of the discussion changed after she was proved right in the original argument.

Originally, she had claimed that the basis of her claim to be a minority was family stories of having a distant NA ancestor. She was accused by many Republicans (including in this forum) of lying about having heard that (that is, of making it up from whole cloth). Then she took a test (after much prodding) and proved that she actually was a small part NA, as she'd previously claimed. I think most people who had been following the story thought, "oh shit, burn on the naysayers." But then after like a day, the whole thing shifted to, "well, she's not full NA/she's not a tribal citizen." But she'd never claimed either of those things! In fact, she'd previously explicitly disavowed them. So it's like, WTF? This is why people hate politics.

It's non-issue for me. I've only chimed in on the subject to correct facts and logic. Never once said she's a bad person or that this should end her political career.

My personal opinion is that it is not a lie and it does not matter.

The bolded part is where I think the argument I'd challenge:

My opinion is had she felt her claim to being a minority was whole-heartedly accurate then she likely wouldn't have stopped making it for her stated reason. She also would have likely made that claim more consistently throughout her life. Don't you think?

This is conjecture. Let me offer another interpretation...

I haven't done the research to know if she's made the claim consistently through her life, BUT I can imagine that if it did come up in conversation, a lot of times it would have been something like this:

Person: What ethnicity are you?
Warren: Mostly white, although I have some Native American ancestors
Person: lol you aren't Native American. Prove it.

I mean, that's basically been the right wing reaction since she got into national prominence, and likely before. It would be tiresome to have to defend that whenever it came up, so I could see anyone just not mentioning it most of the time unless there was some context where it made sense to bring it up.
Granted, this is conjecture on my part, but if my background was scrutinized every time it came up, I would probably stop bringing it up if there wasn't a reason to mention it. It wouldn't be because I don't believe my background, but rather a preliminary reaction to other people's challenges, especially at a moment in time when I didn't have evidence to back up my claims.

Your different interpretation is based on your imagination and self-admitted lack of research. My interpretation is based on the fact she unequivocally listed herself as a minority in professional directories a couple times, and on every legal form we know of she did not claim to be a minority. That and her saying she listed herself as a minority for a reason other than her simply believing that to be the case.

If you think someone claiming to be white on legal forms and a minority in professional directories (in order to make friends) is totally earnest and lacks conflict that's your choice. At least learn and acknowledge some basic facts first.

 

[My Spot]

"Look at my cheekbones! LOOK AT 'EM!!!"

 

[AgonyandIrony]

So I got drunk and bought a kilt last night and I've been wearing it all day.

It's fucking fantastic.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

So I got drunk and bought a kilt last night and I've been wearing it all day.

It's fucking fantastic.

In India I almost bought one of the skirts dudes around there like to wear. Couldn't grasp how to tie it and said fuck it.

 

[Higus]

It's non-issue for me. I've only chimed in on the subject to correct facts and logic. Never once said she's a bad person or that this should end her political career.

Your different interpretation is based on your imagination and self-admitted lack of research. My interpretation is based on the fact she unequivocally listed herself as a minority in professional directories a couple times, and on every legal form we know of she did not claim to be a minority. That and her saying she listed herself as a minority for a reason other than her simply believing that to be the case.

If you think someone claiming to be white on legal forms and a minority in professional directories (in order to make friends) is totally earnest and lacks conflict that's your choice. At least learn and acknowledge some basic facts first.

*sigh*

She claimed to be NA no less than three times on official documents, and in a cook book. Not "part Native", not "1/1024th native", NATIVE, and even defined herself as Cherokee. Jack is trying to make it seem like she only ever claimed to have some distant relative, and never once officially claimed to be native.

You already know this though, because I already said it, and you're essentially just cheerleading at this point, so whatever.

Honestly, I think you're both grasping at straws here, although Cubo's argument is at least coherent. I think it's more parsimonious to chalk it up to failures in her consistency than to describe it as an outright lie, but I'm more than happy to just drop it, tbh.
Heretic's argument seems to boil down to that if she describes herself as one race, it precludes her from being anything else at that moment and in perpetuity. Has she ever claimed to be 100% NA? Show me a link and I'll be more than happy to admit you were right and that Jack was wrong.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Is there any more boring political “controversy” than the Warren NA thing? When so many politicians have committed actual criminal offenses, and every single one has been caught in a lie or “stretched truth” at one point or another I just can’t give a shit about it one way or another.

You guys really care to argue for pages over this trivial bullshit? Of course you do...

In India I almost bought one of the skirts dudes around there like to wear. Couldn't grasp how to tie it and said fuck it.

you could always get one ‘ie lavalava buh...

 

[Fawlty]

Is there any more boring political “controversy” than the Warren NA thing? When so many politicians have committed actual criminal offenses, and every single one has been caught in a lie or “stretched truth” at one point or another I just can’t give a shit about it one way or another.

You guys really care to argue for pages over this trivial bullshit? Of course you do...

you could always get one ‘ie lavalava buh...

Yeah, this is mind-numbing shit to care about in the context of what's happening. By comparison, it's like screaming at a kid for stealing a cookie while ignoring that somebody is casually robbing everything in your house.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Honestly, I think you're both grasping at straws here,

Honestly, I doubt you can accurately describe my position if that's what you think.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

you could always get one ‘ie lavalava buh...

Thanks, but I'm over it. Probably get beat up for cultural appropriation or something.

 

[Higus]

Honestly, I doubt you can accurately describe my position if that's what you think.

Fair enough, I'll give it a shot:
Warren listed herself as Native American in directories but not on legal documents.
You see this lack of consistency as evidence that she does not believe herself to be native american. Is this accurate?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Fair enough, I'll give it a shot:
Warren listed herself as Native American in directories but not on legal documents.
You see this lack of consistency as evidence that she does not believe herself to be native american. Is this accurate?

Looks pretty accurate. Now let's do a little assessment.

The directory listings and legal documents are facts. No grasping at straws there.

It certainly lacks consistency. So that's a fact too.

And yeah, claiming on every legal document that she is not a minority is evidence that suggest she does not fully believe herself to be a minority. Unless you're trying to conflate evidence with proof, or not being a minority with having no minority ancestry whatsoever, there's no straw-grasping there either.

 

[AgonyandIrony]

In India I almost bought one of the skirts dudes around there like to wear. Couldn't grasp how to tie it and said fuck it.

No lie, those things look incredibly comfortable. Gotta tell ya, I don't see why shit like that isn't more commonplace here.

I've been in the utmost of comfort all day, getting a breeze on the boys. Literally no restriction if I have to throw a roundhouse at a crackhead. I'm onto s

 

[Higus]

Looks pretty accurate. Now let's do a little assessment.

The directory listings and legal documents are facts. No grasping at straws there.

It certainly lacks consistency. So that's a fact too.

And yeah, claiming on every legal document that she is not a minority is evidence that suggest she does not fully believe herself to be a minority. Unless you're trying to conflate evidence with proof, or not being a minority with having no minority ancestry whatsoever, there's no straw-grasping there either.

My guess is that context of the documents explains the discrepancy.
I’m going to make some assumptions, so bear with me for a moment.

Say she believes she is NA, but doesn't have proof at the moment. I’m guessing that stating her race as NA on certain documents is going to potentially have different responses and consequences than they would on others. For instance, let’s imagine that saying she is NA in one document would get her a privileged status as an employee, but it would also draw extra scrutiny to verify her heritage. Since she’s in a position where the benefits of the privilege do not outweigh the challenge to verify, there is an incentive to avoid disclosing that information. Likewise, in a document where there is seemingly very little consequence one way or another if you are unable to verify your beliefs, then there is no reason to not disclose the information.

Does this seem like a plausible scenario that would still be consistent with her beliefs?

 

[senri]

No lie, those things look incredibly comfortable. Gotta tell ya, I don't see why shit like that isn't more commonplace here.

I've been in the utmost of comfort all day, getting a breeze on the boys. Literally no restriction if I have to throw a roundhouse at a crackhead. I'm onto s

Nothing is more comfortable than The Nexus Mr. Agony.... Remember this...

 

[Trotsky]

No lie, those things look incredibly comfortable. Gotta tell ya, I don't see why shit like that isn't more commonplace here.

I've been in the utmost of comfort all day, getting a breeze on the boys. Literally no restriction if I have to throw a roundhouse at a crackhead. I'm onto s

You should wear one on stage and then, in the middle of your set, drop the microphone, turn around and bend over to pick it up, and then give the audience the goat.

 

[all caps]

Whoa. I didnt even know this was on the docket?
https://www.upi.com/Mexicos-Supreme-Court-legalizes-cannabis-for-recreational-use/9621541024238/

"MEXICO CITY, Oct. 31 (UPI) -- Drug policy reformers claimed victory in Mexico City Wednesday after the country's Supreme Courthanded down two rulings legalizing cannabis for all forms of non-commercial adult use.

"The rulings pave the way for adults to use marijuana in any way they see fit. We aren't just talking about recreational use," Froylán Enciso, a drug policy researcher at Mexico's social sciences institute, the CIDE, told UPI."

Does this change anything? I dont know anything about the source so if this is fake news I apologize. @Rod1

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

My guess is that context of the documents explains the discrepancy.
I’m going to make some assumptions, so bear with me for a moment.

Say she believes she is NA, but doesn't have proof at the moment. I’m guessing that stating her race as NA on certain documents is going to potentially have different responses and consequences than they would on others. For instance, let’s imagine that saying she is NA in one document would get her a privileged status as an employee, but it would also draw extra scrutiny to verify her heritage. Since she’s in a position where the benefits of the privilege do not outweigh the challenge to verify, there is an incentive to avoid disclosing that information. Likewise, in a document where there is seemingly very little consequence one way or another if you are unable to verify your beliefs, then there is no reason to not disclose the information.

Does this seem like a plausible scenario that would still be consistent with her beliefs?

There's plausibility there.

You should wear one on stage and then, in the middle of your set, drop the microphone, turn around and bend over to pick it up, and then give the audience the goat.

As popularity grows he can give himself a scratchin' in the process, as he drunkenly fumbles for the Mic.

 

[Trotsky]

As popularity grows he can give himself a scratchin' in the process, as he drunkenly fumbles for the Mic.

Now you're just being inappropriate.