WAR ROOM LOUNGE V22: Cult 45

[curryjunkie]

Let's just savor this one moment when the stars have aligned, eh bud?
I'm staring up at the moon. You should go outside and do the same thing.
Unless it's day wherever you are.
In that case, stare directly into the sun.

 

[JDragon]

James Bulger found dead in jail at 89.

Reports that he was murdered:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...st-virginia/2lFAoqNktMi5fjaJ8PWRAI/story.html

 

[curryjunkie]

James Bulger found dead in jail at 89.

Reports that he was murdered:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...st-virginia/2lFAoqNktMi5fjaJ8PWRAI/story.html

Goodfuckhim

 

[HereticBD]

Yeah, here's another bad one. We both know that Republicans don't actually believe their attack here. They just see someone who is a political threat and are trying to smear her.

LOL, why wouldn't they believe it? She did it. Its not a smear that she claimed to be something she isn't for decades. Its a fact.

 

[waiguoren]

Yeah, here's another bad one. We both know that Republicans don't actually believe their attack here. They just see someone who is a political threat and are trying to smear her.

Us v. them thinking is known to rot the brain, Jackie boy...

 

[Jack V Savage]

Us v. them thinking is known to rot the brain, Jackie boy...

I'm not an "us" here, as I'm an outside observer noticing bullshit political tactics (dishonest smears in this case). I think there should be bipartisan agreement that that kind of thing is destructive to our democracy and corrupting to the souls of the people involved and to those of bystanders.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Even in your personal life?

When I was a kid, I had a neighbor who stuttered badly and would always "top" stories with highly implausible ones of his own ("you were chased by a dog? That's nothing, let me tell you about when I was chased by a bear."). But that was kind of pathetic. No one bought any of it, and some of us pretended to because we felt sorry for him. So I don't know if it counts. Even if so, I think she still has him beat.

So when it comes to temperament, sharpness, issue knowledge, and oratory ability, particularly when it comes to weathering and returning attacks during the course of both a single debate and a larger race, you disagree that Obama and Clinton were two extremely skilled figures, and that it dictated their successes?

I think a lot of that stuff is expected and can't be shown to have a differentiating impact. If you're talking about Bill, I think that illustrates the point really well. He won the presidency with 43% of the vote in a three-way field (after the incumbent had been primaried) against a very unpopular incumbent (because of a recession). His subsequent popularity in office is largely a result of an economic boom. There's actually very little evidence of him having above-average political skill, but there's a narrative around it because other forces made him popular. Hillary gets criticized for this, but I'd say that locking up endorsements and scaring off the field ahead of the 2016 primary was probably the best tangible example of someone using skill to win (W was similar in 2000).

Another example of narrative-driven misjudgment is Trump. If the GOP field in 2016 had started much smaller or coalesced around a normal candidate earlier, he would have lost badly and dropped out early. Likewise, if Kerry had run in 2008 instead of 2004, he would have won by a big margin (bigger than Obama, probably) and would be regarded as a great politician.

 

[Jack V Savage]

LOL, why wouldn't they believe it? She did it. Its not a smear that she claimed to be something she isn't for decades. Its a fact.

She never claimed to be full-blooded NA. She claimed to have a distant NA ancestor, and that turned out to be true. Those are facts. But more than that, you know all that.

 

[HereticBD]

She never claimed to be full-blooded NA. She claimed to have a distant NA ancestor, and that turned out to be true. Those are facts. But more than that, you know all that.

She claimed to be NA on official school papers. She claimed to be Cherokee in a cook book.

You're just lying again, Mr. Good Faith.

 

[Jack V Savage]

She claimed to be NA on official school papers. She claimed to be Cherokee in a cook book.

You're just lying again, Mr. Good Faith.

Ugh. This is the kind of stupid exchange I'm not doing anymore. I'll just say that if you have any evidence that she claimed to be full-blooded NA, post it. Not blindly repeating GOP propaganda /= lying.

 

[HereticBD]

Ugh. This is the kind of stupid exchange I'm not doing anymore. I'll just say that if you have any evidence that she claimed to be full-blooded NA, post it. Not blindly repeating GOP propaganda /= lying.

I just cited two examples.

You don't like this conversation because you're dead wrong, have no leg to stand on, and it makes you look like a lying hack. Which you are.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Holy, some of the costumes being banned in schools are a bit over the top.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I just cited two examples.

You don't like this conversation because you're dead wrong, have no leg to stand on, and it makes you look like a lying hack. Which you are.

Meow.

You actually didn't cite any example of her claiming to be full-blooded NA. The facts are not in dispute. She didn't do that. She did prove that her claims were accurate.

 

[HereticBD]

Meow.

You actually didn't cite any example of her claiming to be full-blooded NA. The facts are not in dispute. She didn't do that. She did prove that her claims were accurate.

Ah' yes, the old dishonest "unless she specifically said those words, nothing else counts" argument. Pretty desperate, Jackie.

You're a trip. She's claimed to be NA at Harvard, and Penn U, and even went so far to call herself a Cherokee tribe member in a cook book. The Cherokee Nation even demanded an apology for her decades long lies. But hey, what do they matter, right?

 

[Jack V Savage]

My last comment on this:

Ah' yes, the old dishonest "unless she specifically said those words, nothing else counts" argument.

To be clear, that is not the argument. The argument is that this is a stupid diversion designed to derail the political career of someone who has popular policy positions, a record of sound proposals, and an impressive background. Secondarily, the argument is that the claim you're disputing (that she's not a full-blooded NA) is not one that she ever made, as she was clear that the basis for her NA status was a distant ancestor. The vile IngaVovchanchin had earlier argued that she *fabricated* the claim that she had a distant NA ancestor in order to benefit in her career (despite all evidence contradicting that). That was the smear before it turned out that, oops, the claim was actually correct (and note no apology/correction). That's when hacks switched to, "but, but she's not actually a *full-blooded* NA so even though she proved her actual claim to be right, she's still History's Greatest Monster." Furthermore, the same people getting the vapors about "cultural appropriation" or what they regard as implied exaggeration A) normally rightly mock the notion of cultural appropriation and B) spend time defending Donald Trump, which suggests strongly that the fainting couches are not being used in good faith. QEm-fuckingD.

 

[Higus]

Hmm. I'm reading Paul Beatty's "the Sellout," and it might be influencing me. Also undergoing a shift in my outlook.

read a synopsis. Looks like something I'd enjoy. Would you recommend it?

 

[HereticBD]

To be clear, that is not the argument. The argument is that this is a stupid diversion designed to derail the political career of someone who has popular policy positions, a record of sound proposals, and an impressive background.

That doesn't make it any less true, Jackie. She has claimed to be native for years. It was a lie. Just like you claiming that she never did anything but claim she had a distant relative who was native, is also a lie.

You're allowed to think that its an insignificant gaff, but you're not allowed to just blatantly lie about what she did. Seriously, nobody is with you on this. Well, Homer probably was, but uhh, so much for that...

 

[Jack V Savage]

read a synopsis. Looks like something I'd enjoy. Would you recommend it?

Highly! It's brilliantly written, a page-turner not because of a gripping plot but because it's so entertaining, but also has some weight. If you liked "White Noise," I think you'd like this. I mean, they aren't similar in many ways, but they both have that kind of "fun depth" quality.

 

[Higus]

That doesn't make it any less true, Jackie. She has claimed to be native for years. It was a lie. Just like you claiming that she never did anything but claim she had a distant relative who was native, is also a lie.

You're allowed to think that its an insignificant gaff, but you're not allowed to just blatantly lie about what she did. Seriously, nobody is with you on this. Well, Homer probably was, but uhh, so much for that...

I haven't really followed the Jack/Warren saga around here because the arguments were getting too abstract and boring.
That said, help me out: what exactly are people arguing about? What did she (or Jack) lie about?

 

[Jack V Savage]

I haven't really followed the Jack/Warren saga around here because the arguments were getting too abstract and boring.
That said, help me out: what exactly are people arguing about? What did she (or Jack) lie about?

There's no substantive argument. She said she heard a story about a distant NA ancestor, and claimed NA status on that basis in a couple of settings. Some people claimed she was lying about having heard the story. Most of us believed she heard it but thought the story was wrong. Turned out that the story was true (and BTW, lots of misreading of the story). Some people are now saying that she had claimed or implied that she was full-blooded NA and thus was lying. Apparently, they're trying to claim that I'm lying because ... I'm not exactly sure. Because I'm not going along with the second story, I think.