WAR ROOM LOUNGE V19: Gamblers Anonymous

[Gandhi]

Hmm, somebody trained a tri-star methinks

Since 1991, before the UFC even existed

I'm old

Edit and the quotes are straight from the horses mouth

 

[Jack V Savage]

Both Hughes wins, and both BJ wins are better than this Conor win.

Disagree.

 

[Lead]

I don't get too hung up on p4p. Just using it to illustrate that we're talking about a guy who is kind of beyond just the best fighter in his division and maybe the best in any division. I was always somewhat skeptical of DJ, BTW.

IMO, current LW is much better than Alves/Fitch/Kos-era WW.

Yea, I can see that but then the second hurdle people are seeing is the length/ quantity of #1 contenders GSP went through while Khabib has about four opponents you can name (and one was MJ). This becomes a potential v. works issue. Does he seems very dominant? Yes. Has he cleared this division yet? Not even close. Could he? Possibly, time will tell.

 

[HomerThompson]

Since 1991, before the UFC even existed

I'm old

LOL. Were there a bunch of GSP noobs at Tristar after he started training there?

 

[HomerThompson]

Disagree.

 

[Gandhi]

Okay, let's cut the bullshit and get to the gooey center of this ordeal.

Does GSP pronounce his name like "George" as in "George Bush" or with soft J sounds like "Jacques"? Or is there only one soft J sound like "Jordsh."

If he is saying it fairly squarely then no.1 if he is talking with his papa, then 3.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Yea, I can see that but then the second hurdle people are seeing is the length/ quantity of #1 contenders GSP went through while Khabib has about four opponents you can name (and one was MJ). This becomes a potential v. works issue. Does he seems very dominant? Yes. Has he cleared this division yet? Not even close. Could he? Possibly, time will tell.

I don't look at it exactly the same. Look at it this way: Jones was the GOAT before he fought Shogun; we just didn't know it with any confidence yet (I think many or most people saw it as possible but didn't feel comfortable saying it until that fight or much later). After the Johnson fight, that's how I saw Khabib--not that he *could be* the best fighter in the sport and one of the best ever but that he *might already be*. Now there are aspects of his game we haven't seen tested, and he might not be as good as he looks, but he also might be better than he looks. What we do know is that he's been extremely dominant against what little elite competition he's faced so far.

 

[Gandhi]

LOL. Were there a bunch of GSP noobs at Tristar after he started training there?

Actually not really, at least not when he won the belt the first time, maybe later after 2006 when I stoped for training (for like 11 years lol). There was this one dude that followed him everywhere lol. But at first he was splitting time between tri star and bjj top team Canada at that point and then around after his loss to Serra, dropped Victor Vargotsky (kick boxer and main coach from tri star) and went under Jackson. Eventually as Firas started to grow more and more as a coach and run Tri star, he became the head guy. Gsp always went to many gyms, boxed the best boxers you could find, wrestled with the Olympic team (threw around their heavyweights), went to New York with Enzo for bjj ( the dannaheur connection obv), and as Tri Star slowly evolved into what it is today, he grew with it. Sorry rant end/

 

[Lead]

I don't look at it exactly the same. Look at it this way: Jones was the GOAT before he fought Shogun; we just didn't know it with any confidence yet (I think many or most people saw it as possible but didn't feel comfortable saying it until that fight or much later). After the Johnson fight, that's how I saw Khabib--not that he *could be* the best fighter in the sport and one of the best ever but that he *might already be*. Now there are aspects of his game we haven't seen tested, and he might not be as good as he looks, but he also might be better than he looks. What we do know is that he's been extremely dominant against what little elite competition he's faced so far.

Yea. What's funny is I was going to use Jones as an example that Khabib could surpass GSP before he clears his division if you technically see the division as deep and more difficult.

But the second part you are saying here is the biggest problem I see with rankings on this site. You can't attribute potential to a fighters rankings. It has to be based on actual performances and accomplishments. It's possible the term GOAT is not exclusively tied to ranking a person and could conceivably factor in potential but just like P4P, I get hung up on that whole thing too.

Jones was not past GSP yet before Shogun. Yes, we saw him just destroying all his competition up to Shogun but there is an importance to not jump the gun on preemptively giving him that title. He clearly earned it after steamrolling the rest of the division and old guard but I think a different LHW still deserved the #1 designation until we saw more #1 contender wins. What's amazing about Jones though is he still didn't live up to his potential and still surpassed any LHW. That's an amazing feat but it makes me wonder how much he will pay for it as time passes after his era is finished.

 

[Ruprecht]

I can't really gripe about that considering his record. Was it the layoffs or Mike Goldberg screaming El Cucuy so unnecessarily, or his meh personality that causes him to be downplayed? His record is sick.

TUF was supposed to be his platform for generating interest and support, but he came across as an even bigger wanker than he does on the mic now. Not even in an over confident bullshitter way like Conor, he just seemed like an arsehole.

Both Hughes wins, and both BJ wins are better than this Conor win.

No way. BJ always blew too hot and cold for wins over him to count for much, let alone with a split decision and by throwing in the towel. The Matt Hughes wins might be comparable, but then he went 2/3 there. If Khabib beats Ferguson, and especially if he finishes him, I'd say his record is more impressive the GSP's. Even if he takes a loss at some point.

 

[waiguoren]

Going forward, I will not post a screenshot of Fawlty's posting of his own selfie again. I can find no forum rule against this, but I did post that screenshot a 2nd time after moderator Lead deleted it. I should have waited for Lead's clarification on that. I apologize to Lead for this.

As I have already done privately, I hereby apologize publicly to Fawlty for posting three PMs that he sent to me telling me to delete the screenshot of his posting of his selfie. That was clearly against forum rules. I should have reviewed forum rules before posting those PMs.

 

[Prokofievian]

My dog protected two tiny dogs from a bigger, german shepherd cross at the park tonight. It was awesome. He's a golden retriever, and therefore absolutely rubbish in a fight (he will not bite other dogs), but he just leroy jenkinsed in there and picked a fight anyways.

 

[Jack V Savage]

But the second part you are saying here is the biggest problem I see with rankings on this site. You can't attribute potential to a fighters rankings. It has to be based on actual performances and accomplishments. It's possible the term GOAT is not exclusively tied to ranking a person and could conceivably factor in potential but just like P4P, I get hung up on that whole thing too.

It's not potential, though. It's an evaluation of the current level. We're not talking about how good someone might be; we're talking about how good they currently are.

The division is kind of about peak vs career value. Look at other sports. Sandy Koufax at his best was much better than Warren Spahn, but Spahn had a better career by most measures. It's not a disagreement about potential. Koufax actually did have seasons when he was better than Spahn was in any season in his career. Just didn't have enough of them.

 

[Fedorable]

When I googled Shawn Micheals heel turn, it tries to finish my search with 1997, 1992, 2005, 2013. And I'm sure they all look fairly similar:

that coward tried to escape through the window.

 

[MiniCraque]

Football might be better money, but I doubt its much better for you healthwise.
Baseball and basketball are where the smart a-level athletes gravitate.

Absolutely not, it's much much worse.

Then again I don't think most 21 year olds can see that far, not with all those zeros from their signing bonus in front of them.

 

[Ruprecht]

Going forward, I will not post a screenshot of Fawlty's posting of his own selfie again. I can find no forum rule against this, but I did post that screenshot a 2nd time after moderator Lead deleted it. I should have waited for Lead's clarification on that. I apologize to Lead for this.

As I have already done privately, I hereby apologize publicly to Fawlty for posting three PMs that he sent to me telling me to delete the screenshot of his posting of his selfie. That was clearly against forum rules. I should have reviewed forum rules before posting those PMs.

Just for clarification's sake:

[*]No Disclosure of Personal Information: Do not disclose any other member's email, real name, address, phone number, IP address, or other personal information. This includes the posting contents of emails, private messages, warnings, infractions, and bans. Do not bring personal disputes into the forums.

This includes posting pictures sent to you by screenshot from restricted subforums, or pictures that were posted and then deleted.
Posting personal info, repeating the same behavior that was just moderated and posting PMs (including screenshots of restricted subforums sent by PM) are all usually bannable.
So I certainly wouldn't count on Admin's going easy on you just because you haven't got a history of past infractions (and for you in particular that is no longer the case). I've banned people for any one of those infractions.

 

[Lead]

It's not potential, though. It's an evaluation of the current level. We're not talking about how good someone might be; we're talking about how good they currently are.

The division is kind of about peak vs career value.

It's potential because Jones wasn't able to prove his ability yet again a champ or multiple number one contenders yet. If you open that gate up, it destroys any sense of rankings because it just depends on each person's perception of where they are actually at versus what they have achieved. There was nothing wrong with saying Jones was going to wipe that division cleaned before he even go the belt but to crown him the best before he actually proved it is a problem, especially ranking wise. I get we are crossing over some things with GOAT and rankings but it seems like an important distinction to me.

How about this example. If Jones faced a tragic accident after his fight with Bader, how much would he be regarded in the top LHW discussions? He'd be a footnote imo because we never would truly get to know.

Look at other sports. Sandy Koufax at his best was much better than Warren Spahn, but Spahn had a better career by most measures. It's not a disagreement about potential. Koufax actually did have seasons when he was better than Spahn was in any season in his career. Just didn't have enough of them.

I only watch MMA and some football/hockey so most other sports examples won't work well with me.

 

[Lead]

TUF was supposed to be his platform for generating interest and support, but he came across as an even bigger wanker than he does on the mic now. Not even in an over confident bullshitter way like Conor, he just seemed like an arsehole

I think he just isn't interesting outside of the cage. He's almost best when he stays quiet and pissed off cause when he goes on a rant, it just seems manufactured even if he is genuine about it. He just isn't good at that angle of the entertainment game. His fights are great to watch though so he shouldn't care too much about outside of the cage.

 

[Ruprecht]

I think he just isn't interesting outside of the cage. He's almost best when he stays quiet and pissed off cause when he goes on a rant, it just seems manufactured even if he is genuine about it. He just isn't good at that angle of the entertainment game. His fights are great to watch though so he shouldn't care too much about outside of the cage.

Yeah, I think his performances managed to overshadow his TUF drama (from memory they were drinking, one of the other guys was crying about his kid, and Ferguson attacked him as a deadbeat dad). He seems to think he can improve his promotional appearances by trying harder, but it just makes it worse.

 

[Jack V Savage]

It's potential because Jones wasn't able to prove his ability yet again a champ or multiple number one contenders yet.

Might just be a semantic difference here. As I see it, when you discuss "potential," you're talking about how good someone could become rather than how good they already are. Generally, people only recognize how good someone is after they've already been that good for a little while because it hasn't been demonstrated yet, and people tend to be very conservative in their estimations (on the flip side, a lot of times a formerly great fighter will have declined considerably before everyone acknowledges it he hasn't actually lost yet).

If you open that gate up, it destroys any sense of rankings because it just depends on each person's perception of where they are actually at versus what they have achieved.

I mean, yeah, life is chaotic. If we go by a "best guess" standard, there will be more disagreement but also more accuracy. If we agree not to recognize a guy's ability until he's already proved that he's one of the best beyond any doubt, we'll have more agreement but we'll all collectively be wrong more.

There was nothing wrong with saying Jones was going to wipe that division cleaned before he even go the belt but to crown him the best before he actually proved it is a problem, especially ranking wise. I get we are crossing over some things with GOAT and rankings but it seems like an important distinction to me.

I think we just have to distinguish between peak value and overall value.

How about this example. If Jones faced a tragic accident after his fight with Bader, how much would he be regarded in the top LHW discussions? He'd be a footnote imo because we never would truly get to know.

Kind of a footnote, yeah, but many people would be speculating (rightly) that "man, he might have been the best LHW ever."

I only watch MMA and some football/hockey so most other sports examples won't work well with me.

But you get the idea, right? Someone who was incredibly brilliant for a short time vs. someone who was really good for a long time, but never at the same level as the first guy. It's not potential vs. actual; it's peak vs. total.