OK, I'll accept we had a misunderstanding.
I only "defend" tariffs because the majority of people here talk out their ass acting like they have knowledge of how it works when they clearly don't. (not trying to say I do, but I've sat back and watched basically no predictions from the naysayers come to fruition). Honestly, they appear to be working to me. China has dropped some tariffs, countries are lining up to negotiate with us. This is good for America.
I "defend tariffs" because of what I'm seeing and thats nations wanting to deal with us vs telling us to fuck off. I'm tired of hearing how having trade deficits with everyone is actually a great thing, while also being obligated to spend billions on their defense and other foreign aid. II heard nothing but apocalyptic predictions when the stock market had ,what, 3 bad days? Yet nothing about the massive bounce back just days later and last I looked, the stock market is booming.
And lastly, I "defend" tariffs because I have yet to see any explanation of why everyone does it but when the US does, we're evil and destroying the world. I've seen some pretty lame attempts to explain it but none that make any sense. China actually has the balls to ask us not to tariff them the same way they do us. Why are our exports tariff'd to the point of our products being uncompetitive and we can't do the same?
The world has taken the USA for granted and worse, the leadership of this country has advertised us as such to the world for too long. We prop the rest of the world up at our own detriment. We get raped on trade, lost all of our manufacturing to countries who don't follow the rules of "fair trade", and then foot the bill for your military defense as well.All for a bunch of assholes who don't even like us, the same people crying doom. Enough is enough. We're tired of being the Salvation Army to the world.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Obviously, I don't agree, but I'll pick a few bits and pieces out where that's the case.
No predictions have come true:
This prediction is the intersection of logic and wishful thinking:
The tariffs will reverse soon. Trump will claim a win for some bullshit, obscure trade deal that you've never heard of and now the glass beads from cambodia will be cheaper/more expensive/whatever. Trump isn't a person who can admit fault so he'll have to save face with lies.
The reason is that the Republic Party will get wiped out in the mid terms if nothing changes. I can't see them sitting idly by as they see the writing on the wall that they won't have a job soon.
I think I got this one pretty close to 100%. Basically a near total reversal on everything except China.
China has dropped some tariffs,
The net position is that China has raised tariffs over 100%. It's just not a fair assessment when someone goes up by 170% and then drops a few niche areas by a small amount.
This is good for America.
If it is, it remains to be seen. So far its both an economic and diplomatic catastrophe that has worsened the US stance in the world. That may or may not be worth it, and you may or may not respect or care what the US's stance is.
how having trade deficits with everyone is actually a great thing
I mean, it's a pretty good sign that your nation has plenty of money to spend. Other people can't buy shit. A way to reverse it would be to drastically lower your living standards and have way less money to spend.
spend billions on their defense
Other countries need to step up, agreed.
apocalyptic predictions when the stock market had ,what, 3 bad days? Yet nothing about the massive bounce back just days later and last I looked, the stock market is booming
You don't need predictions, it fucking
cratered. It bounced back only because they reversed the tariffs. There's still an exodus of money leaving the US, and there's a real risk that if the China/US trade war continues there'll be long term pain.
And lastly, I "defend" tariffs because I have yet to see any explanation of why everyone does it but when the US does, we're evil and destroying the world.
It's just not really true. Not everyone does it. There's plenty who have free trade agreements with the US with little to no tariffs. The biggest thing that shits me is that our country has historically had a trade deficit and 99% free trade (no tariffs) yet still got tariffed.
There's several huge flaws that make the application of tariffs a nightmare situation:
- The arrogance/bullying of the US, especially to those who are its allies, and its purported 'hurt' when they have been nothing but supportive of the US
- The lies perpetuated about why the tarrifs exist and how they are calculated
- The lies perpetuated about their effect
- The total lack of direction and strategy in them. This is a big one; if there are specific problems to be dealt with, they should be dealt with, but turning your guns on the entire world and then playing the victim is a dick thing to do. Fuck that.
On the tariff strategy: China is a bunch of dicks. They manipulate their currency, steal IP, and are a known problem to the world. If you want to trade war with them, can you just go do that instead of fucking over penguins somewhere? Why can't there just be some sensible strategy? Oh, and if you intend to go to a trade war with China, maybe stock up on the supplies that will be strangled like rare earth minerals. The administration didn't do that; they just shot from the hip and went 'oh fuck, we're exposed too'. A little planning would be good.
pretty lame attempts to explain it but none that make any sense.
Probably the medium of an internet forum is not great for that kind of discussion. I've felt I've greatly abbreviated my response, but I'd be happy to elaborate if you have specific questions.
Why are our exports tariff'd to the point of our products being uncompetitive and we can't do the same?
Two points:
1st, where that's true, the US should engage in activities to balance that, if its in their interest to do so. There's some level of protective tariffs in every country - even in yours - but where those are manifestly unfair, then the US should act. However, the story being rolled out by your administration is plain untrue. I doubt many people can even name more than a handful of tariffs; they simply believe the administration.
2nd, your products are uncompetitive because you're a very, very wealthy country. You pay your people well. Your standards are high. People get high wages. You are more wealthy than every other nation on earth. They have a lot of difficulty buying your goods. It does mean, however, that your technological capabilities mean you can export high tech, high value stuff instead of low tech things like shoes. Australia has the same. We're a wealthy country. It's not possible for us to compete in manufacturing. Our car industry folded years ago for the same reason.
has taken the USA for granted and worse
I think the EU has failed to arm itself sufficiently and has relied upon the US too much.
I think the current actions in Ukraine make the US a very unreliable partner. Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in a security agreement with the US and Russia (Trilateral Statement (Budapest Memorandum) ), and now the US is waivering in its support. Good fucking luck convincing anyone else not to become nuclear armed in the future.
We get raped on trade, lost all of our manufacturing to countries who don't follow the rules of "fair trade", and then foot the bill for your military defense as well.
I've discussed the loss of manufacturing; that's simply due to the value of your dollar and the wealth and living standards of your nation. Australia has lost its too. The fact is that people won't buy "Australian Made" if it costs 10x to make. The won't even buy "Australian Made" if it's 10% more. So the manufacturing leaves to someone who'll work 10 hours a day for $1-2 a day. It's just the way it is.
As for 'raped on trade', you're fucking rich so you buy stuff. Do you go buy a TV and then think you're getting raped by the TV saleman (maybe sometimes....). I don't get it. The wealthiest nation in the world, who largely sets the rules, is complaining about it? If your nation is feeling poor, yet is the richest in the world, it's your own damn fault. Reduce the wealth inequality. Stop letting the stupidly rich get richer while the regular population get poorer. Vote in people that aren't just lining the pockets of other billionaires.
Conclusion:
Apologies if it's a bit of a scattershot here. I'm happy to discuss any of the above in a little more detail, that's probably more abbreviated than I wanted it to be and it probably needed to be more focussed.