Economy Trump's April 2nd Tariffs

[Zazen]

Thats so clever how you pretended I asked something else.

Why are you against price transparency anyway? Like even if you’re pro tariff don’t you think it’s better for the American people to know why theyre paying more and how much extra they need to pay for the items?

 

[Rod1]

Thats so clever how you pretended I asked something else.

As clever as thinking that people who criticize this stupid ass trade war is because "they support China".

This is just as retarded as the war on terror

"Maybe we shouldn't invade Iraq, its stupid and illegal"
"So you want the terrorists to win??? why do you love Saddam so much??? keep cheering for Saddam you traitor."

 

[Rob Battisti]

An investment that produces no tangible value and generates billions of yearly losses due to energy is a zero sum game, it only generates profit because of more buyers coming in.


Real Estate has tangible value, and gold doesn't generates much costs when it comes to storage plus it has limited value in terms of jewelry and other minors uses.

The USD is not a medium of investment, its a currency, you only hold on it for its liquidity something BTC isn't known for unless you are willing to risk some massive losses.



Yup, and there is no Fed to maintain any degree of stability within BTC.

BTC isn't money, money needs three characteristics

Exchangeability
Store of value
Unit of account.

BTC only fulfills the third to a limited extent.

Nothing is priced in BTC and nothing is leveraged in BTC either, its not money just because you call it coin.


This is just trolling with this comment.




Its a payment network that holds at most between $1-$2 trillion vs the entire financial system of the world that manages everything including ironically crypto to real currency operations because crypto isn't a real currency so nothing is priced in crypto.


Its a "ponzi" in the sense that it generates losses and any profit gained is just another's man's loss.



Big difference is that the fiat system has never sold itself as an investment, nobody says "buy dollars now because price will increase in the future" or anything remotely similar, the only purpose of the fiat system it so act as a currency and it works exactly like that.

You don't seem to understand what a currency and why crypto aren't real currencies.

If i give you a price in US and tell you a rough estimate of when the thing was priced you will know the relative worth of the item in question, you can't do that with BTC.

I can’t help myself.

You’re making a lot of bold claims without actually understanding the mechanics of what you’re criticizing.

Yes, real estate and gold have tangible use cases, but that doesn’t make Bitcoin useless. Tangibility doesn’t determine monetary value, trust, scarcity, and utility within a system do. The U.S. dollar isn’t backed by anything tangible either, yet it functions because people believe in it. Bitcoin is no different in that regard, except it’s programmatically scarce, not inflationary by design.

You keep pointing to energy use like it’s inherently bad, but you’re ignoring what that energy does. Which is that it secures a decentralized, incorruptible global ledger. That’s a breakthrough. Every major monetary or financial system consumes energy, Bitcoin’s just happens to be transparent and independently verifiable. You’re also ignoring that a growing portion of that energy comes from renewables and stranded energy that would otherwise be wasted.

Saying Bitcoin isn’t money because nothing is “priced in BTC” is idiotic.

Every new form of money goes through stages: collectible then store of value then medium of exchange then unit of account.

Bitcoin is in stage two, much like gold was for thousands of years before governments turned it into official money. You’ll argue that it’s not a store of value, but that’s because you’re a moron.

The fact that Bitcoin can be exchanged, stored, and accounted for proves it’s on the trajectory. Dismissing it for not being universally adopted yet is like mocking the internet in 1994 for not replacing every library.

And the idea that profit from Bitcoin is “just another man’s loss” proves you don’t understand how any market works. That is how price discovery functions in every single asset class! Stocks, real estate, currencies, they all move based on buyers and sellers. That doesn’t make them Ponzi schemes. A Ponzi scheme has promised payouts, central control, and guaranteed returns. Bitcoin has none of those.

Just saying the fiat system doesn’t sell itself as an investment is a dodge. No one “sells” the dollar, sure — they just print more of it, year after year, while telling you inflation is good!! Meanwhile, Bitcoin’s supply is fixed, open-source, and cannot be manipulated. That’s exactly why people hold it, not because it’s a perfect currency now, but because it’s a hedge against the slow erosion of every fiat system in history.

If you’re going to critique Bitcoin, at least do it from a place of understanding. Otherwise, you’re not debating, you’re just defending a system because it’s familiar and pointing out your ignorance on something you don’t even want to understand.

 

[Rod1]

Had to stop here. No reason to argue with an ignorant person.

Ok, let's see if that's true.

Ill pick a random date from Jan 2020 to March 2025

A brand new F-150 priced at 1 BTC is it expensive or not on the date i picked?

 

[Rob Battisti]

Ok, let's see if that's true.

Ill pick a random date from Jan 2020 to March 2025

A brand new F-150 priced at 1 BTC is it expensive or not on the date i picked?

What does that prove? That prices fluctuate?

Probably 9-10 BTC to buy one in Jan 2020 and maybe .8 of one to buy it today.

 

[Rod1]

Yes, real estate and gold have tangible use cases, but that doesn’t make Bitcoin useless.

So why use them as examples?

Tangibility doesn’t determine monetary value, trust, scarcity, and utility within a system do. The U.S. dollar isn’t backed by anything tangible either, yet it functions because people believe in it. Bitcoin is no different in that regard, except it’s programmatically scarce, not inflationary by design.

US dollar isn't an investment, USD has value because its a currency, there is nothing more liquid in the world than USD cash, USD also has value as a form of accounting and medium of exchange, BTC doesn't.

You keep pointing to energy use like it’s inherently bad, but you’re ignoring what that energy does. Which is that it secures a decentralized, incorruptible global ledger. That’s a breakthrough. Every major monetary or financial system consumes energy, Bitcoin’s just happens to be transparent and independently verifiable. You’re also ignoring that a growing portion of that energy comes from renewables and stranded energy that would otherwise be wasted.

Nobody holds BTC because "its decentralized" they hold BTC because they think its an investment and an investment that doesn't generates any sort of profit and has steep costs of maintenance is by definition a net loss, people who profit of BTC is because somebody lost money on it.

And no, other financial systems don't spend any sort of meaningful energy for transactions.

Saying Bitcoin isn’t money because nothing is “priced in BTC” is idiotic.

No man, its the fucking definition of money.

Something either is or isn't something, and to be money you need to fulfill three characteristics and one of those is to be used as a form of accounting or as a form of exchange, which BTC isn't neither.

Every new form of money goes through stages: collectible then store of value then medium of exchange then unit of account.

No you are describing how some stuff ends up becoming money, but until it becomes money, its not money.

Bitcoin is in stage two, much like gold was for thousands of years before governments turned it into official money. You’ll argue that it’s not a store of value, but that’s because you’re a moron.

The fuck are you on about? gold and silver have been money for much longer before was used as a form of exchange "things were priced in gold" and as unit of account "contracts were made on gold" since history became a thing.

Silver too

Internet History Sourcebooks Project: Ancient History

Notice how loans, sales, purchases and rents were made in an established unit of silver weight.

You are probably confusing it with "pegged money" which is different.

The fact that Bitcoin can be exchanged, stored, and accounted for proves it’s on the trajectory. Dismissing it for not being universally adopted yet is like mocking the internet in 1994 for not replacing every library.

If all currencies disappeared from the face of the world, would you be able to tell how much a BTC is worth in comparison to other items like cars, food or services? if i give you a random day can you honestly tell me how much something is worth in BTC?

And the idea that profit from Bitcoin is “just another man’s loss” proves you don’t understand how any market works. That is how price discovery functions in every single asset class! Stocks, real estate, currencies, they all move based on buyers and sellers. That doesn’t make them Ponzi schemes. A Ponzi scheme has promised payouts, central control, and guaranteed returns. Bitcoin has none of those.

Stocks generate dividends based on a company profit, Real Estate is tangible and has uses which can be used for profit and currencies were never meant to be an investment.

Just saying the fiat system doesn’t sell itself as an investment is a dodge. No one “sells” the dollar, sure — they just print more of it, year after year, while telling you inflation is good!! Meanwhile, Bitcoin’s supply is fixed, open-source, and cannot be manipulated. That’s exactly why people hold it, not because it’s a perfect currency now, but because it’s a hedge against the slow erosion of every fiat system in history.

Indeed, they keep printing more and more dollars because the point of a fiat currency is precisely to work as a currency.

If you’re going to critique Bitcoin, at least do it from a place of understanding. Otherwise, you’re not debating, you’re just defending a system because it’s familiar and pointing out your ignorance on something you don’t even want to understand.

Buddy just because you don't understand the most basic functions of a currency is not my problem.

 

[Rod1]

What does that prove? That prices fluctuate?

That BTC is not a currency

Probably 9-10 BTC to buy one in Jan 2020 and maybe .8 of one to buy it today.

I picked the date already, is the truck cheap or not?

 

[Rob Battisti]

So why use them as examples?


US dollar isn't an investment, USD has value because its a currency, there is nothing more liquid in the world than USD cash, USD also has value as a form of accounting and medium of exchange, BTC doesn't.


Nobody holds BTC because "its decentralized" they hold BTC because they think its an investment and an investment that doesn't generates any sort of profit and has steep costs of maintenance is by definition a net loss, people who profit of BTC is because somebody lost money on it.

And no, other financial systems don't spend any sort of meaningful energy for transactions.



No man, its the fucking definition of money.

Something either is or isn't something, and to be money you need to fulfill three characteristics and one of those is to be used as a form of accounting or as a form of exchange, which BTC isn't neither.


No you are describing how some stuff ends up becoming money, but until it becomes money, its not money.


The fuck are you on about? gold and silver have been money for much longer before was used as a form of exchange "things were priced in gold" and as unit of account "contracts were made on gold" since history became a thing.

Silver too

Internet History Sourcebooks Project: Ancient History

Notice how loans, sales, purchases and rents were made in an established unit of silver weight.

You are probably confusing it with "pegged money" which is different.



If all currencies disappeared from the face of the world, would you be able to tell how much a BTC is worth in comparison to other items like cars, food or services? if i give you a random day can you honestly tell me how much something is worth in BTC?


Stocks generate dividends based on a company profit, Real Estate is tangible and has uses which can be used for profit and currencies were never meant to be an investment.




Indeed, they keep printing more and more dollars because the point of a fiat currency is precisely to work as a currency.



Buddy just because you don't understand the most basic functions of a currency is not my problem.

Sigh, you’re getting boring.

You keep moving the goalposts while acting like you’re the only adult in the room. Let’s slow down and untangle the mess you keep trying to make. If you’re too stupid to follow, just let me know and I’ll use smaller words.

First, yes, the U.S. dollar is a currency. No one argued otherwise. But people do use currencies, real estate, and gold as stores of value and hedges, not just for transactions. Bitcoin’s use as a hedge and long-term store of value doesn’t make it illegitimate, it puts it in the same historical lane that gold and silver were in before they became official currency which they aren’t even anymore in todays fiat world.

You’re hung up on the idea that money must already fulfill all three textbook functions at scale — medium of exchange, store of value, and unit of account — in order to qualify as money. That’s backwards. Nothing starts as fully adopted money by those standards. Not even gold. Adoption happens in phases, and history proves that. Bitcoin is already fulfilling two of the three, and it is increasingly used as a medium of exchange in certain economies and platforms.

Your argument that Bitcoin only has value because someone else buys it applies just as easily to art, gold, collectibles, and real estate ANYTHING. And if you think only dividend-generating assets are valid investments, you are excluding half the financial system, including currency trading, growth stocks, venture capital, and yes, gold. By your own standard, none of those are valid either.

You also keep saying Bitcoin doesn’t generate profit, but that’s not how it works. Bitcoin isn’t a company. It’s a network. Profit isn’t measured by dividends or rental income. It is measured by the performance of the asset relative to your entry point, just like any store of value. It’s literally the easiest thing to understand. Unless you’re a retard. Once again, that may be the case.

You keep trying to flex with textbook definitions, but you’re confusing rigid semantics with useful understanding. If you think fiat currency printing endlessly while eroding purchasing power is somehow the high ground, then I think we’re done here.

By all means, hold on to your cash. BTC is the best asset there is. Period. There is no second best.

 

[idrankyourbeer]

In a major policy shift, U.S. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick announced that vehicles with 85% or more domestic content will be fully exempt from new tariffs on automobiles.

That’s a steep threshold, and as of today, there’s only one automaker that qualifies for the exemption: Tesla.

https://fuelarc.com/cars/only-tesla-exempt-from-new-auto-tariffs-thanks-to-85-domestic-content-rule/

shocking!

 

[Rob Battisti]

That BTC is not a currency


I picked the date already, is the truck cheap or not?

I literally just showed you it got 10x cheaper against BTC over that 5 year period.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Anyway, you’re boring. If you don’t want to understand it and want to call it a Ponzi scheme feel free.

 

[Rod1]

I literally just showed you it got 10x cheaper against BTC over that 5 year period.

But you can't tell whether someone priced in BTC is cheap or not, even when given a rough date on when said thing was bought or sold, that's the entire point.

for BTC to be a currency its known value as a roughly given time must be widely known and when even crypto-bros can't tell the price of BTC in a given rough date then its definitively not a currency.

You keep saying "its gaining value" as if it was a good thing for a currency.

Imagine you use BTC as a form of accounting and you sign a mortgage in BTC to buy a house, if the house was worth $200k, you got a loan for 30 BTC at current prices it would mean the mortgage payments just got 10x more expensive.

 

[Seano]

Curious what people think of the Trump admins idea to supplant Federal income tax for those making under 200k with tariff revenue.

 

[Rod1]

Sigh, you’re getting boring.

You keep moving the goalposts while acting like you’re the only adult in the room. Let’s slow down and untangle the mess you keep trying to make. If you’re too stupid to follow, just let me know and I’ll use smaller words.

The goalposts have not been moved a single inch, the definitions are clear, you simply don't understand them

First, yes, the U.S. dollar is a currency. No one argued otherwise. But people do use currencies, real estate, and gold as stores of value and hedges, not just for transactions.

Yes, the US is a currency, gold, real estate and BTC aren't.

Bitcoin’s use as a hedge and long-term store of value doesn’t make it illegitimate, it puts it in the same historical lane that gold and silver were in before they became official currency which they aren’t even anymore in todays fiat world.

Who said it was illegitimate? its simply not a currency.

You’re hung up on the idea that money must already fulfill all three textbook functions at scale — medium of exchange, store of value, and unit of account — in order to qualify as money. That’s backwards. Nothing starts as fully adopted money by those standards. Not even gold. Adoption happens in phases, and history proves that. Bitcoin is already fulfilling two of the three, and it is increasingly used as a medium of exchange in certain economies and platforms.

You are the one that keeps changing established definitions and moving the goalposts.

BTC is not used as "medium of exchange" anywhere, nobody is pricing anything in BTC which is the very definition of what a "medium of exchange is"

I am a Mesopotamian farmer, i want a slave, i sell crops for silver at a given SILVER price and then use that silver to buy a slave at a given SILVER price.

You use BTC to buy USD or another real currency or you sell BTC for a real currency.

Your argument that Bitcoin only has value because someone else buys it applies just as easily to art, gold, collectibles, and real estate ANYTHING.

Art? yes although has subjective value to the buyer
Gold? has practical use.
collectibles? again subjective value to buyer
Real Estate? practical use.

And an store of value all of those cost next to nothing to keep, Real Estate is probably the only one that carries a cost but then again you can rent Real Estate so it evens out.

And if you think only dividend-generating assets are valid investments, you are excluding half the financial system, including currency trading, growth stocks, venture capital, and yes, gold. By your own standard, none of those are valid either.

- Currency trading is indeed for the most part gambling.
- Growth stock and Venture capitals are based on potential profits of the venture itself, if the venture fizzles out then yeah, its a loss.
-Gold has practical uses and costs next to nothing to keep.

You also keep saying Bitcoin doesn’t generate profit, but that’s not how it works. Bitcoin isn’t a company. It’s a network. Profit isn’t measured by dividends or rental income. It is measured by the performance of the asset relative to your entry point, just like any store of value. It’s literally the easiest thing to understand. Unless you’re a retard. Once again, that may be the case.

Yup and the performance of the asset is 100% entirely dependent on people buying high and selling low, it by definition requires people to lose money.

You keep trying to flex with textbook definitions, but you’re confusing rigid semantics with useful understanding. If you think fiat currency printing endlessly while eroding purchasing power is somehow the high ground, then I think we’re done here.

Purchasing power isn't eroded by inflation, only if you are dumb enough to keep fiat money buried in the yard for decades.

By all means, hold on to your cash. BTC is the best asset there is. Period. There is no second best.

Its the best asset, until it isn't.

 

[Rod1]

Curious what people think of the Trump admins idea to supplant Federal income tax for those making under 200k with tariff revenue.

Do you honestly believe is doable? would need to see the math.

 

[Rob Battisti]

But you can't tell whether someone priced in BTC is cheap or not, even when given a rough date on when said thing was bought or sold, that's the entire point.

for BTC to be a currency its known value as a roughly given time must be widely known and when even crypto-bros can't tell the price of BTC in a given rough date then its definitively not a currency.

You keep saying "its gaining value" as if it was a good thing for a currency.

Imagine you use BTC as a form of accounting and you sign a mortgage in BTC to buy a house, if the house was worth $200k, you got a loan for 30 BTC at current prices it would mean the mortgage payments just got 10x more expensive.

You realize how dumb that argument is? In an inflationary fiat system any price in the past will seem “cheap”. For a scarce asset, anything in the past seems “expensive”.

 

[AWilder]

Curious what people think of the Trump admins idea to supplant Federal income tax for those making under 200k with tariff revenue.

they'll just be paying a tariff on their goods at a much higher rate. sounds pretty idiotic to me.

 

[Seano]

Do you honestly believe is doable? would need to see the math.

I really don't know, thats why I was asking opinions.

Probably pretty complicated. I know that lower income people make up a relatively small portion of overall federal income tax collected yearly but "relatively small" is still billions and billions of dollars.

 

[Seano]

they'll just be paying a tariff on their goods at a much higher rate. sounds pretty idiotic to me.

I guess that could be true if its the lower class consumer who buys these imported goods.

 

[Rod1]

You realize how dumb that argument is? In an inflationary fiat system any price in the past will seem “cheap”. For a scarce asset, anything in the past seems “expensive”.

And yet i can safely say whether a brand new F-150 priced in USD is expensive or not, you can't tell the same for BTC unless you know the specific day it was priced.

Therefor BTC is not a medium of exchange, when you literally have to know how much its worth in respect to another currency to know whether something is cheap or not.