Social Transgender Megathread Vol. 2

[filthybliss]

If we are judging mental illness by being delusional, I'm definitely fuckin mentally ill, along with like 95% of America lol.

Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness defined by the DSM-5 though. That is much different than me saying that I KO Jon Jones, that's a bad faith comparison

 

[Soggust]

Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness defined by the DSM-5 though. That is much different than me saying that I KO Jon Jones, that's a bad faith comparison

But not all trans people have gender dysphoria.

Yes, those are all stylistic changes but they don't give people different social categorizations in society. You don't switch bathrooms or sports divisions due to the those changes.

The MJ race thing is weird. I don't think he ever claimed to be white. People claimed that he wanted to be white but I don't think he went around saying "I am white now".

The bathroom thing is the most retarded position in politics imo and doesn't make sense because it's A) unenforceable and B) going by "bio sex" (we going by chromes or gentialia?) only makes it easier for predators.

I do think sports commissions should be able to discriminate based upon sex at birth (or whatever criteria they deem necessary), so I actually don't think I disagree with you there, but I don't think it's worth ostracizing them collectively from society.

 

[filthybliss]

But not all trans people have gender dysphoria.

If they are trans, they certainly had been suffering from gender dysphoria at least at some point in their lives otherwise they wouldn't be trans. I was just chiming in that gender dysphoria cannot be written off as basic as a delusion.

The bathroom thing is the most retarded position in politics imo and doesn't make sense because it's A) unenforceable and B) going by "bio sex" (we going by chromes or gentialia?) only makes it easier for predators.

I am not arguing for or against it. I am just saying that it certainly does play more of a role in the current landscape of society than a legal name change or switching hair colors.

I do think sports commissions should be able to discriminate based upon sex at birth (or whatever criteria they deem necessary), so I actually don't think I disagree with you there, but I don't think it's worth ostracizing them collectively from society.

I don't think they should be ostracized by society either. The only uneasiness that I have is with the side-effects of hormone therapy in regards to minors. Especially when the scientific literature shows that the persistence of the feelings regarding gender dysphoria seems to decrease ~80%+ with age/puberty. So with a fall off rate that steep, I think its important to maybe hold the horses on such a extreme procedure like hormone therapy.

Frontiers | A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sex...

www.frontiersin.org

Information on Estrogen Hormone Therapy | Gender Affirming Health Program

transcare.ucsf.edu

 

[Soggust]

If they are trans, they certainly had been suffering from gender dysphoria at least at some point in their lives otherwise they wouldn't be trans. I was just chiming in that gender dysphoria cannot be written off as basic as a delusion

Why do we think that?

Gender dysphoria is not simply living your life as the other gender (which you seem to agree with), but rather it's any discomfort and distressed caused by that. An analogy to gender dysphoria might be depression. Some folks might have none, some might have a mild case, and others might have extreme cases.

So, I don't agree that they had to have experienced that at some point in their life - although I will concede that most probably have.

But by that analogy, like 1/3 of Americans are still mentally ill because of depression alone. So, while technical true, it feels like disingenuous framing given the original context I was responding to that these people are looney tunes.

I am not arguing for or against it. I am just saying that it certainly does play more of a role in the current landscape of society than a legal name change or switching hair colors.

I tend to think it's often a bit more hypothetical than actual, but I understand your point and agree more than I don't.

I don't think they should be ostracized by society either. The only uneasiness that I have is with the side-effects of hormone therapy in regards to minors. Especially when the scientific literature shows that the persistence of the feelings regarding gender dysphoria seems to decrease ~80%+ with age/puberty. So with a fall off rate that steep, I think its important to maybe hold the horses on such a extreme procedure like hormone therapy.

Frontiers | A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sex...

www.frontiersin.org

Information on Estrogen Hormone Therapy | Gender Affirming Health Program

transcare.ucsf.edu

I will be honest, I don't know enough about hormone blockers, but the frontier study looks super shaky (ridiculously small sample size, data from the 70s, missing data according to footnotes, etc) and the other looks valid enough that I assume it's correct (although it's kinda just a lady's opinion but she's pro, so lets go with it). She seems to think there are some irreversible effects, and if that ends up true, I agree with you.

My initial reaction has always been that doctors shouldn't prescribe anything to kids that does permanent damage, and the surgery rules should be the same rules as fake tits for girls (whatever that is I think its 18+). Seems like we might agree on that.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

The fucking irony.

 

[The_Renaissance]

The fucking irony.

Let the fucked up losers eat themselves, these fringe movements always end up eating themselves and this one will be no different. It entered lunacy territory long ago, now it's just become a parody of itself.

 

[El Panteron]

Why do we think that?

Gender dysphoria is not simply living your life as the other gender (which you seem to agree with), but rather it's any discomfort and distressed caused by that. An analogy to gender dysphoria might be depression. Some folks might have none, some might have a mild case, and others might have extreme cases.

So, I don't agree that they had to have experienced that at some point in their life - although I will concede that most probably have.

But by that analogy, like 1/3 of Americans are still mentally ill because of depression alone. So, while technical true, it feels like disingenuous framing given the original context I was responding to that these people are looney tunes.




I tend to think it's often a bit more hypothetical than actual, but I understand your point and agree more than I don't.




I will be honest, I don't know enough about hormone blockers, but the frontier study looks super shaky (ridiculously small sample size, data from the 70s, missing data according to footnotes, etc) and the other looks valid enough that I assume it's correct (although it's kinda just a lady's opinion but she's pro, so lets go with it). She seems to think there are some irreversible effects, and if that ends up true, I agree with you.

My initial reaction has always been that doctors shouldn't prescribe anything to kids that does permanent damage, and the surgery rules should be the same rules as fake tits for girls (whatever that is I think its 18+). Seems like we might agree on that.

You've got the spirit but it isn't exactly right, gender dysphoria is controversial among both specialists and the trans themselves, as it doesn't really present with a standard set of symptoms and it just describes a general discomfort in your body, coming (probably) from dissonance between your idea of self and your looks. It's by all means a "functional" illness as the diagnosis allows trans to access the care they need and take hormons or chop they dick off or whatever, but it's a reach to describe it as an actual illness.

Another important factor to add is that trans people have an idea they're trans already when they're very small kids, same as you did (I assume you were pretty aware you're a boy by the time you were 4 at the most), people think it's different but it isn't really, trans don't reason themselves into thinking "oh I'm a man/woman then" after reaching maturity, it's something they experience and often can't quite describe.

I'm not super well versed in the effects of hormones (I'm a pro on the mental side of things), but I think permanent effects are kind of the point. When thinking about the damage you do to the kids with permanent change, you need to also consider the damage you do by making them develop in the years of the formation of your identity in what they see as a wrong body. All in all there are people who regret changing, but it's a lot less then other kinds of surgery (even hip replacemnt).

 

[Rob Battisti]

I was just chiming in that gender dysphoria cannot be written off as basic as a delusion.

Sure it can.

This whole thing is built on the “thoughts and feelings” of the person.

They “think” they are a man or woman and we somehow have to play along.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Another important factor to add is that trans people have an idea they're trans already when they're very small kids, same as you did (I assume you were pretty aware you're a boy by the time you were 4 at the most)

Of course the average 4 year old boy thinks they're a boy. A 4 year old boy can observe that they have male genitalia (like all other boys), likely believes that the main difference between boys and girls is the existence of a penis, and are called a boy by those around them. Why would a 4 year old boy think otherwise?

Your suggestion is that a 4 year old boy doesn't think they're a boy for those reasons, but because of some internal sense of boyness. This is a nearly impossible claim to prove given the above confounding variables -- though the David Reimer case gives you some support.

My hypothesis is as follows: It is not the case that the average 4 year old boy has an internal feeling of boyness. Rather, the average 4 year old boy simply has an absence of dysphoria. These are very different things.

Nobody knows what it means to "feel like a boy" or "feel like a girl", because we all only get to experience one life. I accept the claim that trans individuals experience dysphoria, and feel a mismatch between their internal sense of self and their external body. But I do not accept the claim that cis individuals experience an internal feeling of gender. They simply have an absence of dysphoria.

 

[El Panteron]

Of course the average 4 year old boy thinks they're a boy. A 4 year old boy can observe that they have male genitalia (like all other boys), likely believes that the main difference between boys and girls is the existence of a penis, and are called a boy by those around them. Why would a 4 year old boy think otherwise?

Your suggestion is that a 4 year old boy doesn't think they're a boy for those reasons, but because of some internal sense of boyness. This is a nearly impossible claim to prove given the above confounding variables -- though the David Reimer case gives you some support.

My hypothesis is as follows: It is not the case that the average 4 year old boy has an internal feeling of boyness. Rather, the average 4 year old boy simply has an absence of dysphoria. These are very different things.

Nobody knows what it means to "feel like a boy" or "feel like a girl", because we all only get to experience one life. I accept the claim that trans individuals experience dysphoria, and feel a mismatch between their internal sense of self and their external body. But I do not accept the claim that cis individuals experience an internal feeling of gender. They simply have an absence of dysphoria.

It's very cute you're shitting out "your hypothesis" to someone with 3 degrees

 

[El Panteron]

Of course the average 4 year old boy thinks they're a boy. A 4 year old boy can observe that they have male genitalia (like all other boys), likely believes that the main difference between boys and girls is the existence of a penis, and are called a boy by those around them. Why would a 4 year old boy think otherwise?

Your suggestion is that a 4 year old boy doesn't think they're a boy for those reasons, but because of some internal sense of boyness. This is a nearly impossible claim to prove given the above confounding variables -- though the David Reimer case gives you some support.

My hypothesis is as follows: It is not the case that the average 4 year old boy has an internal feeling of boyness. Rather, the average 4 year old boy simply has an absence of dysphoria. These are very different things.

Nobody knows what it means to "feel like a boy" or "feel like a girl", because we all only get to experience one life. I accept the claim that trans individuals experience dysphoria, and feel a mismatch between their internal sense of self and their external body. But I do not accept the claim that cis individuals experience an internal feeling of gender. They simply have an absence of dysphoria.

What the hell I'll entertain you.
Shit like this would only make sense if humans didn't have interpersonal relationships from the second we're born.
it's not about "inside feeling of boyishness", it's about how you're treated by other people and get to express yourself with others. Our looks signal to others how we want to be perceived.

You're asking if we strip all the history and rules maybe it wouldn't matter if I have tits or no. And well... maybe? We can't know because it's not the world we live in and it's never been.

 

[EndlessCritic]

What the hell I'll entertain you.
Shit like this would only make sense if humans didn't have interpersonal relationships from the second we're born.
it's not about "inside feeling of boyishness", it's about how you're treated by other people and get to express yourself with others. Our looks signal to others how we want to be perceived.

You're asking if we strip all the history and rules maybe it wouldn't matter if I have tits or no. And well... maybe? We can't know because it's not the world we live in and it's never been.

I confess I do not follow your point or argument.

You made a specific claim that 4 year old boys are "aware" that they are boys, in the same way that trans kids are aware that they are trans. I understood (I believe quite reasonably) that you were referring to an internal sense of gender.

As I understand this new post, you are now denying that you were referring to an internal sense of gender.

If not an internal sense of gender, what did you possibly mean by "same as you did", when you stated: "Another important factor to add is that trans people have an idea they're trans already when they're very small kids, same as you did (I assume you were pretty aware you're a boy by the time you were 4 at the most)".

PS. Nobody gives a shit about you having three degrees.

 

[El Panteron]

PS. Nobody gives a shit about you having three degrees.

Except those that pay me due to those I guess?

I confess I do not follow your point or argument.

Yeah I got as much

You made a specific claim that 4 year old boys are "aware" that they are boys, in the same way that trans kids are aware that they are trans. I understood (I believe quite reasonably) that you were referring to an internal sense of gender.

As I understand this new post, you are now denying that you were referring to an internal sense of gender.

If not an internal sense of gender, what did you possibly mean by "same as you did", when you stated: "Another important factor to add is that trans people have an idea they're trans already when they're very small kids, same as you did (I assume you were pretty aware you're a boy by the time you were 4 at the most)".

1. I did not "make a claim", I shared a piece of information with you. It's not my opinion. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

2. This "internal sense of gender" means how we want peole to treat us and perceive us. This stuff would have no meaning if we never had any social internaction. By the time we're 3 or 4 we have internalised a series of "scripts" about who we are, and who we want to be, that will make up the bulk of the our gender identity. It starts around 1 or 2 when we first become aware or the physical differences, and developes in the 2 next years by observing and living interactions, we know by then what we want out of those interactions.

I also want to be clear: there IS an internal sense of gender (google "gender identity"), what I was trying to say ("it's not about an internal sense of boyishness") is that it comes after these social interactions and as a result of this stage of development.

 

[EndlessCritic]

1. I did not "make a claim", I shared a piece of information with you. It's not my opinion. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

2. This "internal sense of gender" means how we want peole to treat us and perceive us. This stuff would have no meaning if we never had any social internaction. By the time we're 3 or 4 we have internalised a series of "scripts" about who we are, and who we want to be, that will make up the bulk of the our gender identity. It starts around 1 or 2 when we first become aware or the physical differences, and developes in the 2 next years by observing and living interactions, we know by then what we want out of those interactions.

I also want to be clear: there IS an internal sense of gender (google "gender identity"), what I was trying to say ("it's not about an internal sense of boyishness") is that it comes after these social interactions and as a result of this stage of development.

I understand from your posts that you are stating that all individuals experience an internal sense of gender. If this your claim or not?

 

[El Panteron]

I understand from your posts that you are stating that all individuals experience an internal sense of gender. If this your claim or not?

Yes
Curious to see where you're going with this. Have a sense but here I am.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Yes

I adamantly deny that I experience an internal sense of gender. I can attest based on my own lived experience that your claim is simply false.

I wish to be clear that not only is your claim false, but morally repugnant, as it purports to invalidate my actual lived experience.

To claim that people like me don't exist is frankly disgusting.

 

[El Panteron]

I adamantly deny that I experience an internal sense of gender. I can attest based on my own lived experience that your claim is simply false.

I wish to be clear that not only is your claim false, but morally repugnant, as it purports to invalidate my actual lived experience.

To claim that people like me don't exist is frankly disgusting.

Ahahaha this is actually funny, well played.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Ahahaha this is actually funny, well played.

Maybe you should put your three degrees to use and adjust your viewpoint to new data.

I am not being facetious. I am being very serious. I do not understand what people refer to when they talk of an internal sense of gender.

I do not deny that others experience it. But I do deny that I do.

 

[El Panteron]

Maybe you should put your three degrees to use and adjust your viewpoint to new data.

I am not being facetious. I am being very serious. I do not understand what people refer to when they talk of an internal sense of gender.

I do not deny that others experience it. But I do deny that I do.

I can call you they/them if you like <3

 

[Fox by the Sea]

I do not understand what people refer to when they talk of an internal sense of gender.

They don't either.