Social Transgender Megathread Vol. 2

[EndlessCritic]

I can call you they/them if you like <3

I don't care what you call me. You can call me whatever you want.

 

[El Panteron]

Maybe you should put your three degrees to use and adjust your viewpoint to new data.

I am not being facetious. I am being very serious. I do not understand what people refer to when they talk of an internal sense of gender.

I do not deny that others experience it. But I do deny that I do.

You keep talking as it was some intellectual understanding of male/female/inbeteween that trans have. It's not, it's a sense, a feeling of what's appropriate for you and others to behave like and be treated like.
Of course you have it too, but never had to think about it because there's no major conflict happening between your identity and how others treat you.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Of course you have it too, but never had to think about it because there's no major conflict happening between your identity and how others treat you.

Now you not only deny that I don't experience it, but you now claim that I've never thought about it.

These issues have been in the cultural zeitgeist for at least a decade. I've thought about it a lot. Your claim that I've "never had to think about it", is once again, absolutely false.

 

[El Panteron]

Now you not only deny that I don't experience it, but you now claim that I've never thought about it.

These issues have been in the cultural zeitgeist for at least a decade. I've thought about it a lot. Your claim that I've "never had to think about it", is once again, absolutely false.

Brother please try to internalise the shit you read I can't be doing this forever

 

[EndlessCritic]

Brother please try to internalise the shit you read I can't be doing this forever

Since you're obviously an expert in the field, I'd love to learn more about this from you.

Regarding my lack of a sense of gender identity, you stated the following: "Of course you have it too, but never had to think about it"

You also stated the following in a different post (emphasis added), "Another important factor to add is that trans people have an idea they're trans already when they're very small kids, same as you did (I assume you were pretty aware you're a boy by the time you were 4 at the most"


In other words, in one post, you say that the typical 4 (cis) year old is "pretty aware" of their gender identity (in the same way that a trans individual understands that they're trans), yet in response to my claim that I don't experience an internal sense of gender identity, you claim that I've just "never had to think about it" because I don't experience a conflict.

These are irreconcilable and contradictory claims.

 

[RoastBeast]

You keep talking as it was some intellectual understanding of male/female/inbeteween that trans have. It's not, it's a sense, a feeling of what's appropriate for you and others to behave like and be treated like.
Of course you have it too, but never had to think about it because there's no major conflict happening between your identity and how others treat you.

Having major conflict between our own identity and how others treat us a a perfectly normal part of being human that we all experience. We all deal with this in some manner. Most likely in dozens of instances.

 

[El Panteron]

Having major conflict between our own identity and how others treat us a a perfectly normal part of being human that we all experience. We all deal with this in some manner. Most likely in dozens of instances.

Brother it's obviously not the same thing, I get you struggle to empathise but not all conflics are of the same scale. I would hope this'd be an apparent thing.

Since you're obviously an expert in the field, I'd love to learn more about this from you.

Regarding my lack of a sense of gender identity, you stated the following: "Of course you have it too, but never had to think about it"

You also stated the following in a different post (emphasis added), "Another important factor to add is that trans people have an idea they're trans already when they're very small kids, same as you did (I assume you were pretty aware you're a boy by the time you were 4 at the most"


In other words, in one post, you say that the typical 4 (cis) year old is "pretty aware" of their gender identity (in the same way that a trans individual understands that they're trans), yet in response to my claim that I don't experience an internal sense of gender identity, you claim that I've just "never had to think about it" because I don't experience a conflict.

These are irreconcilable and contradictory claims.

They aren't because again you're conflating a sense, a feeling with intellectual and phillsophical understanding of a concept.
I concede the "never had to think about it" can be misinterpreted on its own, but you had like 3 or 4 more posts of context.
When people normally treated you as a boy I assume (I don't know you my brother) that was never a problem to you, when the same happens to a trans kid it is a problem.

EDIT: I want to add also that while we do understand how it happens, we don't understand why it happens, so I can't give you any answer on that front.

 

[EndlessCritic]

When people normally treated you as a boy I assume (I don't know you my brother) that was never a problem to you, when the same happens to a trans kid it is a problem.

Correct. Because I had an absence of dysphoria.

You are making the (improper and unfounded) assumption that someone's absence of dysphoria implies that there is a match between an individual's internal sense of gender identity and how they are treated by society.

This assumption is not founded. The absence of a sense of dysphoria does not prove anything about what that individual actually subjectively experiences, and certainly does not prove that this person has an internal sense of gender.

My hypothesis remains that when most cis-people talk about "gender identity", they are simply referring to an absence of dysphoria. You laughed at this claim, rejected it, and then boasted about having three degrees. It remains unclear why you are so certain of this position.

 

[El Panteron]

Correct. Because I had an absence of dysphoria.

You are making the (improper and unfounded) assumption that someone's absence of dysphoria implies that there is a match between an individual's internal sense of gender identity and how they are treated by society.

This assumption is not founded. The absence of a sense of dysphoria does not prove anything about what that individual actually subjectively experiences, and certainly does not prove that this person has an internal sense of gender.

Again my sweetling, this stuff isn't shit I am claiming, it's shit that reached a wide consensus in scientific settings and in theory.

There's questionnaires about gender identity online. You can take one if you're interested.

But by all means and purposes yes, an absence of gender dysphoria (there are other kinds as well) implies your gender identity matches your birth sex. As with everything, definitions in psychology are for practical use. You're trying to go into a "how can you prove an internal state?" discussion, and there's nothing we can do besides questionnaires and observing behaviour and presentation.

Just ask yourself this: how do you dress? How do you present? What are your values? How do you act in a relationship?

Also again, describing gender dysphoria as an illness is very shaky.

 

[EndlessCritic]

But by all means and purposes yes, an absence of gender dysphoria (there are other kinds as well) implies your gender identity matches your birth sex. As with everything, definitions in psychology are for practical use. You're trying to go into a "how can you prove an internal state?" discussion, and there's nothing we can do besides questionnaires and observing behaviour and presentation.

This was my exact original point (which you rejected), which is that the existence of gender identity is simply being inferred from (if not defined by) an absence of dysphoria and behavioural observations.

Again, this point was made in response to your claim that "you were pretty aware you're a boy by the time you were 4", which implies something more than an absence of dysphoria, which is the (only) point I pushed back on.

This gets to the core and ultimate question. Is gender identity defined by the absence of dysphoria, or is the absence of dysphoria simply evidence of gender identity?

Since you again are such an expert, what does the literature say about individuals who identity as agender, and their experiences with dysphoria? Do you agree or disagree that agender people exist? Do all agender individuals necessarily experience dysphoria? You have asserted there is a "wide consensus" in science on this point, so I'm sure you can provide some studies on this quite easily.

 

[El Panteron]

hit post by accident, editing.

I read some, I was talking about validated questionnaires, nut buzzfeed quizes

 

[EndlessCritic]

Also again, describing gender dysphoria as an illness is very shaky.

Randomly (and falsely) implying that I described gender dysphoria as an illness is very shaky.

 

[El Panteron]

This was my exact original point (which you rejected), which is that the existence of gender identity is simply being inferred from (if not defined by) an absence of dysphoria and behavioural observations.

No brother, it can be inferred from a number of behavious and answers (from my previous post: "Just ask yourself this: how do you dress? How do you present? What are your values? How do you act in a relationship?"), the absence of gender dysphoria implies that your identity isn't conflicting with the gender of birth.
I'm starting to think you're not reading.

Since you again are such an expert

Glad to help brother

what does the literature say about individuals who identity as agender, and their experiences with dysphoria? Do you agree or disagree that agender people exist? Do all agender individuals necessarily experience dysphoria? You have asserted there is a "wide consensus" in science on this point, so I'm sure you can provide some studies on this quite easily.

You do realise that being agender IS a gender identity right?
I never claimed it to be a strictly binary thing, I know for a fact it isn't.
And no, some experience dysphoria and some don't, depends on each individual experience.

Also do you need my input to write "gender identity" on google scholar?
Here it is my man
One study is inconsequential, you can read through however many you want.

 

[El Panteron]

This gets to the core and ultimate question. Is gender identity defined by the absence of dysphoria, or is the absence of dysphoria simply evidence of gender identity?

Yes

 

[EndlessCritic]

No brother, it can be inferred from a number of behavious and answers (from my previous post: "Just ask yourself this: how do you dress? How do you present? What are your values? How do you act in a relationship?"), the absence of gender dysphoria implies that your identity isn't conflicting with the gender of birth.
I'm starting to think you're not reading.

The issue is that this gets into an entirely different discussion that I wanted to avoid.

In Canadian law (where I practice), there is a distinction between "gender expression" and "gender identity". These are defined terms in my province:

Policy on preventing discrimination because of gender identity and gender expression | Ontario Human Rights Commission

April 2014 - People who are transgender, or gender non-conforming, come from all walks of life. Yet they are one of the most disadvantaged groups in society. Trans people routinely experience discrimination, harassment and even violence because their gender identity or gender expression is...

www.ohrc.on.ca

Gender identity is each person’s internal and individual experience of gender. It is their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum. A person’s gender identity may be the same as or different from their birth-assigned sex. Gender identity is fundamentally different from a person’s sexual orientation.

Gender expression is how a person publicly presents their gender. This can include behaviour and outward appearance such as dress, hair, make-up, body language and voice. A person’s chosen name and pronoun are also common ways of expressing gender.


As a matter of Canadian law, questions of how an individual dresses and presents are questions that relate to gender expression, not identity.

Your suggestion that one can know something about identity by the way someone dresses is wrong as a matter of Canadian law. But, I do not wish to defend Canada's legal definitions, which is why I have intentionally avoided the subject.

 

[El Panteron]

The issue is that this gets into an entirely different discussion that I wanted to avoid.

In Canadian law (where I practice), there is a distinction between "gender expression" and "gender identity". These are defined terms in my province:

Policy on preventing discrimination because of gender identity and gender expression | Ontario Human Rights Commission

April 2014 - People who are transgender, or gender non-conforming, come from all walks of life. Yet they are one of the most disadvantaged groups in society. Trans people routinely experience discrimination, harassment and even violence because their gender identity or gender expression is...

www.ohrc.on.ca

Gender identity is each person’s internal and individual experience of gender. It is their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum. A person’s gender identity may be the same as or different from their birth-assigned sex. Gender identity is fundamentally different from a person’s sexual orientation.

Gender expression is how a person publicly presents their gender. This can include behaviour and outward appearance such as dress, hair, make-up, body language and voice. A person’s chosen name and pronoun are also common ways of expressing gender.


As a matter of Canadian law, questions of how an individual dresses and presents are questions that relate to gender expression, not identity.

My bad, the basis of said questions were if you do that freely and if/how you feel comfortable with that. Didn't write that, again my bad.
The expression isn't always free and doesn't always reflect your identity, this is true and a fair point.

This is an example of questionnaire for young kids

 

[EndlessCritic]

My bad, the basis of said questions were if you do that freely and if/how you feel comfortable with that. Didn't write that, again my bad.
The expression isn't always free and doesn't always reflect your identity, this is true and a fair point.

This is an example of questionnaire for young kids

I can confidently say that the way I dress is equally motivated by 1) Putting in as little effort as possible; 2) Spending as little money as possible; and 3) Generally trying to avoid attention.

I would suggest these motivations are not gendered. To the extent my expression appears male gendered, it is to avoid people who are looking at me to ask questions or think about my gender.

In this sense, my (apparently male) expression is in fact not a proxy or evidence for my identity, but rather simply a camouflage to avoid attention.

 

[El Panteron]

I can confidently say that the way I dress is equally motivated by 1) Putting in as little effort as possible; 2) Spending as little money as possible; and 3) Generally trying to avoid attention.

I would suggest these motivations are not gendered. To the extent my expression appears male gendered, it is to avoid people who are looking at me to ask questions or think about my gender.

In this sense, my (apparently male) expression is in fact not a proxy or evidence for my identity, but rather simply a camouflage to avoid attention.

But you still dress in trousers and shirts don't you?
And what about your underwear? Granny pants seem comfy.

And please don't make me yap AGAIN about the difference between sense/feeling and intellectual, explicit thinking

 

[EndlessCritic]

But you still dress in trousers and shirts don't you?

Yes. But, trousers and shirts are inanimate objects, and are not inherently gendered.

Any notion of gender attaching to these inanimate objects is based on invented social constructions -- not objective reality.

 

[El Panteron]

Yes. But, trousers and shirts are inanimate objects, and are not inherently gendered.

Any notion of gender attaching to these inanimate objects is based on invented social constructions -- not objective reality.

Yes my brother all of this is based on social constructs and subject to change, the Romans wore skirts and all that.
Doesn't make the impact it has on people less real.