Top 10 Heavyweights ever

[Brazilian007]

On Nog’s list, why did you omit Werdum (Nog beat him in PRIDE) as well as Ricco, Valentijn Overeem x 2, Volk Han, and Gary Goodridge, plus Sapp who was actually a terror at that time, in addition to the other 11 names you listed?
Nog’s resume is insane. JDS has a sick resume too, but I think Nog’s is a bit better.

I forgot Werdum

Volk han
Sapp
Goodridge
Valejtjin Overeem

Are all cans. Rico beat Couture but he was not a top caliber HW by todays standards and neither is Couture

Should I include Joaquim Ferreira and Eduardo Maiorino who JDS also beat?

 

[Brazilian007]

He omitted them because he wasn't even watching MMA during Nog's prime. Nog has the best and deepest resume in HW history. Main reason Fedor is above him is b/c he absolutely decimated him H2H in their primes and doing that to a peak Nog is one of the best wins ever.

I have watched MMA since 2008 and watched all of Nogs old fights. My favorite fighters are all old school guys

Fedor
Shogun
Wanderlei

So dont talk to me like I am some noob

 

[Here's Johnny!]

same shit.
It's not a feat. It's 4 fights. Not even consecutive.

While there was a guy who went undefeated for a decade.... this is not even comparable.

I agree Fedor is # 1 but there were a ton of squash matches for Fedor in that decade... stipe didn't get to fight random WWE wrestlers with records of 8 and 10 as a champ. Just saying. One of those fights for Fedor was against Hong man Choi.... dude had zero skills and had only fought 1 time against 28 and 1 (29 and 0 in reality) fedor..Fedor... they wouldn't even allow that in the states

 

[BFoe]

Stipe is currently the UFC HW GOAT imo, but honestly, while plenty of good HWs have fought in the UFC, no one has ever put his stamp on the division in the way Fedor did in Pride. So yeah, I think Stipe is more of a place holder as 'UFC HW GOAT' more than anything.

Cain always struck me as a guy who had the potential to be truly great, but because of circumstances somewhat underachieved his potential. He also got KOed by JDS and completely bullied by Werdum, which, while both are all time great HWs, doesn't exactly prove my gut feeling that he was somehow a generational talent.

That’s the thing with Cain, he looked like such a beast, pretty much no matter who he fought. My first live event ever attended was UFC 146, which had Cain-Bigfoot 1. I was like: So. Much. Blood. It was a massacre. Unfortunately, his career was just hampered by injuries and cut way short. I look at his resume and it’s literally a handful of good wins, and it’s getting harder and harder for me to rank him as highly as I might’ve previously. Such a shame.

For Stipe, he’s got some great wins and very good title defense stats. But Arlovksi was past it when Stipe beat him, so was Overeem, so was JDS (prime-Ish JDS beat him), so was Cormier but I kind of forgive that because Stipe was too by that point. If it wasn’t for the title defense stats, JDS’s resume looks better honestly.

He also got owned by Ngannou but while that was post injury Cain he had nothing for Ngannou

Just saying “post injury” doesn’t really do it justice.

Cain injured his rotator cuff against Brock, had it fixed only to totally tear it again right before the JDS loss, then fucked his knee (torn in 2014 before the Werdum fight so that was postponed until 2015). Werdum and Cain were supposed to rematch but Cain got injured again, (back injury requiring surgery) was finally supposed to rematch Werdum in 2016 but couldn’t even get medically cleared to fight, didn’t fight again for almost THREE YEARS, whereupon we have the Ngannou fight. Clipped early and blew knee out again.
That fight is totally worthless. I literally give it no significance at all.

 

[Brazilian007]

That’s the thing with Cain, he looked like such a beast, pretty much no matter who he fought. My first live event ever attended was UFC 146, which had Cain-Bigfoot 1. I was like: So. Much. Blood. It was a massacre. Unfortunately, his career was just hampered by injuries and cut way short. I look at his resume and it’s literally a handful of good wins, and it’s getting harder and harder for me to rank him as highly as I might’ve previously. Such a shame.

For Stipe, he’s got some great wins and very good title defense stats. But Arlovksi was past it when Stipe beat him, so was Overeem, so was JDS (prime-Ish JDS beat him), so was Cormier but I kind of forgive that because Stipe was too by that point. If it wasn’t for the title defense stats, JDS’s resume looks better honestly.


Just saying “post injury” doesn’t really do it justice.

Cain injured his rotator cuff against Brock, had it fixed only to totally tear it again right before the JDS loss, then fucked his knee (torn in 2014 before the Werdum fight so that was postponed until 2015). Werdum and Cain were supposed to rematch but Cain got injured again, (back injury requiring surgery) was finally supposed to rematch Werdum in 2016 but couldn’t even get medically cleared to fight, didn’t fight again for almost THREE YEARS, whereupon we have the Ngannou fight. Clipped early and blew knee out again.
That fight is totally worthless. I literally give it no significance at all.

Good points I forgot but Cain fans ignoring his Werdum loss forget a few things.

Cain was prime till 2016. When he fought Werdum in 2015, Werdum was even more seasoned and 5 years older than Cain and also had his own injuries. Werdum had 20 wins vs Cains 13 but Werdum spent more in MMA.

Also if a fighter cannot stay healthy that is on them it means they arent built for MMA long term. It is reality just like if a fighter needs TRT they shouldnt fight then.

 

[ExitLUPin]

I agree Fedor is # 1 but there were a ton of squash matches for Fedor in that decade... stipe didn't get to fight random WWE wrestlers with records of 8 and 10 as a champ. Just saying. One of those fights for Fedor was against Hong man Choi.... dude had zero skills and had only fought 1 time against 28 and 1 (29 and 0 in reality) fedor..Fedor... they wouldn't even allow that in the states

Fedor def fought some squash fights but they were mostly NYE shows where Japanese just did things differently.

Fedor was fighting 3-5 times a year during his prime like most of the great HWs of the golden era. Taking a squash fight here and there like boxers did in great eras was common.

HWs in Stipe's era fought 1-2 times a year. It's a much different environment, activity level and schedule.

 

[BFoe]

Good points I forgot but Cain fans ignoring his Werdum loss forget a few things.

Cain was prime till 2016. When he fought Werdum in 2015, Werdum was even more seasoned and 5 years older than Cain and also had his own injuries. Werdum had 20 wins vs Cains 13 but Werdum spent more in MMA.

Also if a fighter can stay healthy that is on them it means they arent built for MMA long term. It is reality just like if a fighter needs TRT they shouldnt fight then.

Oh I don’t ignore the Werdum loss. I mean, it’s debatable what form Cain was, he was def piling on injuries. But he still looked decent in the cage, and he was the champ. It’s a nice win for Werdum. It’s the Ngannou loss that doesn’t hold much worth for me.

 

[Koro_11]

1. Fedor
2. Stipe
3. Big Nog
4. Werdum
5. JDS
6. Cormier
7. Cain
8. Barnett
9. Nganou
10. Overeem

Put a bit of thought into it. Maybe make a few changes.

You got Barnett there but not the guy that beat him 3 times heads up?

 

[Brazilian007]

Oh I don’t ignore the Werdum loss. I mean, it’s debatable what form Cain was, he was def piling on injuries. But he still looked decent in the cage, and he was the champ. It’s a nice win for Werdum. It’s the Ngannou loss that doesn’t hold much worth for me.

Okay but how can you not see JDS above Nog? I dont get that. And I am not a UFC shill

My favorite fighters are

Fedor
Wanderlei
Shogun
Werdum
Pereria yeah he is new to MMA but his Kickboxing career was sick and only Artem Vakhitov really bested him

I am also long on Pavlovich, Yan and Artem if he gets into MMA

 

[BFoe]

I agree Fedor is # 1 but there were a ton of squash matches for Fedor in that decade... stipe didn't get to fight random WWE wrestlers with records of 8 and 10 as a champ. Just saying. One of those fights for Fedor was against Hong man Choi.... dude had zero skills and had only fought 1 time against 28 and 1 (29 and 0 in reality) fedor..Fedor... they wouldn't even allow that in the states

Yeah JMMA gonna JMMA
But I tend to agree with @ExitLUPin — Fedor fought good competition as often as todays fighters, he just fought additional fights. Today, fighters fight 1-3x a year, typically without the squashes.

2002– Haseman, Schilt, Herring
2003- Nogueira, Valavicius, Fujita, Goodridge, Nagata (I wouldn’t call Fujita and Goodridge elite, but they’re solid. Fujita is underrated a lot)
2004- Coleman, Randleman, Ogawa and Nogueira on the same night, Nogueira
2005- TK, Cro Cop, Zulu
2006- Coleman, Hunt

You get the idea. He’s pretty much on pace with what we see today. His 2004 was insane, actually.

 

[Shaddows]

You need to use quotes when you claim I did or didn't say something. Otherwise people think you're lying. And you should tell the truth my little keyboard warrior.

LOL
kid, you are just humiliating yourself now.

I quoted you, just like this:

....But if he keeps fighting, and losing, and lets say finished his career on a 0-10 run, then yes that matters. You don't get to rewrite someone's career and cut out the parts you don't like.

And I noted that since Silva was 1-7-1 in his last fight, according to your above quote, it takes away from all the records he broke while in his prime.
That's your logic not mine, kid.
If you want to continue being a retard, then by all means.

I personally think it would take more balls from you if you admitted you fucked up and didn't think through before you posted the above.

But you do you, kid. That's your prerogative.
Mine is to ignore your sorry ass, since it is fairly obvious you do not know how to have a conversation without either make a fool of yourself, or have a meltdown...

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

Curious about your orders

1. Stipe- Most title defenses, two time champ, beat the best opposition
2. Fedor- Undefeated for almost a decade, against the top heavies at the time
3. Cain- two time champ, utterly mauled everyone he beat
4. Big Nog- beat a who's who, and remained competitive for years
5. Cro Cop- Smashed everyone in his early days not named Fedor or Nog (ok, and Kev)
6. Werdum- Beat the best guys (Cain, Fedor) but was inconsistent
7. Ngannou- Smashy
8. Cormier- Amazing fighter. Beat Stipe. Didn't have enough high quality opposition wins to be top 5
9, JDS- Probably the most historical early run, great champ
10. Couture- 3 time champ, didn't face the toughest opposition, but they were the toughest at that time
Honorables to Coleman, Overeem and Sylvia

More reference...

CroCop All-Time Status
Thread/Discussion from Oct 29, 2013.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/crocop-all-time-status.2592867/

 

[Shaddows]

I agree Fedor is # 1 but there were a ton of squash matches for Fedor in that decade... stipe didn't get to fight random WWE wrestlers with records of 8 and 10 as a champ. Just saying. One of those fights for Fedor was against Hong man Choi.... dude had zero skills and had only fought 1 time against 28 and 1 (29 and 0 in reality) fedor..Fedor... they wouldn't even allow that in the states

hehe well, the problem fighting undeserving fools at HW, is that many of them can still catch you and knock you out silly.
And say what you want about Hong, he was BIG, had a pretty decent 12-3 record in Kickboxing, and at that time, it was pretty fair game.

Not much different than Lesnar fighting Crazy Horse to somehow qualify him fighting for the belt.
Or Stipe fighting De Fries or Shane Del Rosario... I mean, you want to pick names, two can play that game.

The thing is, Fedor fought freaks. That's what the Japanese were into.
But those freaks were always dangerous.
Anyone can get caught. Any one of them could get lucky.
The mystique about Fedor is that no one did. And even when caught Like with that piledrive by Randleman, he survived and won that fight.

That's (to me) akin to Silva picking up that sub on Sonnen 10 seconds before the end of the fight. It doesn't matter that he lost the 4 rounds and 4 minutes of the 5th. He won.
That is what mattered at that time!

 

[User9992]

CroCop is too high.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

More reference...

IRS

History of odds and rankings 2001-2004

05-14-2009, 01:13 AM

I was inspired by a thread earlier today to compile this http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/doe...fights-975388/​

I get sick of seeing people revise history with (common) statements like "Fedor only ever beat up losers like Herring in Pride, and he isn't even top 30". Hopefully some of this information can put it back into perspective.

Also a lot of it is just funny and weird. For example, Tank Abbott a betting favorite over Mir.

I used the internet archives (waybackmachine) on some mma website I used to visit then to compile this. But it is patchy due to the avaliable information, and my non-dedication. anyway, enjoy​

https://web.archive.org/web/2012091...f44/history-odds-rankings-2001-2004-a-975549/

 

[BFoe]

Okay but how can you not see JDS above Nog? I dont get that. And I am not a UFC shill

My favorite fighters are

Fedor
Wanderlei
Shogun
Werdum
Pereria yeah he is new to MMA but his Kickboxing career was sick and only Artem Vakhitov really bested him

I am also long on Pavlovich, Yan and Artem if he gets into MMA

Honestly man, it’s tough. I was saying earlier ITT that I sometimes feel I have JDS too low because he’s got such a sick resume—and I have him pretty high at #5.

One of the key differences between us that I saw when you listed Nog’s resume is that you seemed to look at common opponents, whereas I don’t look at that really. Example: you mentioned that JDS beat Nelson, whereas Nog got KOed by Nelson. Nelson wasn’t in his greatest form in 2014, but Nog was one fight from retirement. I mean, he won the PRIDE belt in late 2001, he was wayyy past it by 2014. Even by 2010 when Cain beat him, he was declined. The Cain fight was Nog’s 41st fight. Cain only has 17 total, and that was enough to wreck Cain’s body. And does a loss like that negate a whole body of work?

I also think that whatever method one uses should work across all weight classes and divisions. One time, someone asked why I have Joanna above Namajunas. After all, Rose beat her twice. Plus, Rose beat Weili twice, and Weili beat Joanna twice.
Case closed?
Well, Joanna whooped the dog snot out of Esparza, and Esparza beat Rose twice. Joanna also beat Karolina, and Rose lost to Karolina. Joanna beat Andrade, but Rose lost to Andrade, but Rose also beat Andrade…
Ranking that way is a mess. My answer is that Joanna ranked higher because her overall resume and accomplishments are better than Rose’s. And I say that as a big Rose fan.

The question to me here would be, is JDS’s overall body of work better than Nogueira’s? That’s tough to answer, but I don’t quite think so.

 

[Here's Johnny!]

Fedor def fought some squash fights but they were mostly NYE shows where Japanese just did things differently.

Fedor was fighting 3-5 times a year during his prime like most of the great HWs of the golden era. Taking a squash fight here and there like boxers did in great eras was common.

HWs in Stipe's era fought 1-2 times a year. It's a much different environment, activity level and schedule.

I will say this for Pride, I think it was honorable that they did not call the squash matches Title defenses... even though with other champs sometimes that bit them in the butt where a champ lost and retained his belt.

 

[BFoe]

I wouldn't pick any heavyweight to beat this version of ngannou in a dream fight

Anyways
1. Fedor
2. Stipe
3. Werdum
4. Nog
5. Cain

That’s a reasonable top 5.
In dream fights, I’ll favor Fedor at his peak over anyone—but when you’re dealing with crazy power (and athleticism, tbf) like Ngannou’s, anything can happen.

 

[Here's Johnny!]

That’s a reasonable top 5.
In dream fights, I’ll favor Fedor at his peak over anyone—but when you’re dealing with crazy power (and athleticism, tbf) like Ngannou’s, anything can happen.

I agree, Ngannou isn't in the top 10 even, but he literally could randomly KO prime Fedor, Big Nog, stipe, cain and I wouldn't be surprised... I also wouldn't be surprised if he went 1-3 against all of those fighters if he managed the 1 KO. Talking Prime only.

 

[Future GOAT]

#1 Fedor.







The rest.