Top 10 Heavyweights ever

[Deleted member 110072]

Ngannou would not be afraid of trading power with Fedor as he did with Lewis man, but it DEFINITELY would not be good bussiness for Fedor, as the big punchers in Rogers or Hunt -or Fujita - showed before late in his career in Bellator.

Fedor himself said he would avoid trading shots and would look for the TD in a hypothetical match up with Francis.
The probem is Fedor hada a tendency to end on his back when clashing with big/strong guys by HW standards in the clinch,and Ngannou excells at meeting the agressor with devastating counters rather than chasing. I do think is a horrible match up.

I do think Mirko could be a tougher match up for Francis.

I feel like a lot of Francis counters though like Reem and Stipe have been opponents making BIG errors, that punch Reem throws and the duck afterwards is ugly as hell, more Luke Rockhold than Fedor and Stipe has a history of running upright into punches. The kind of pressure Francis put on those guys, chasing them to just around counter range would be very dangerous against Fedor, he feared doing it against Derrick Lewis afterall who's significantly slower and less accurate.

The idea Fedor was some easy to counter brawler really I'v always felt doesnt stand up to much analysis, whenever I hear that I'm reminded of Tito's infamous "straight punchs just like they teach in boxing" moments before Arlovski lost. Throwing mostly hooks and overhands doesn't mean your can't have good defence and I think Fedor had the best defence coming forward of any HW in MMA history, great ability to slip punchs, great timing and great at making sure his head was off axis when coming forward unlike Stipe.

I think Francis best chance would be a mad bullrush early in the fight and hope that something lands or he maybe gets a wild takedown and GnP.

 

[pankrat]

The idea Fedor was some easy to counter brawler really I'v always felt doesnt stand up to much analysis, whenever I hear that I'm reminded of Tito's infamous "straight punchs just like they teach in boxing" moments before Arlovski lost. Throwing mostly hooks and overhands doesn't mean your can't have good defence and I think Fedor had the best defence coming forward of any HW in MMA history, great ability to slip punchs, great timing and great at making sure his head was off axis when coming forward unlike Stipe.

I think Francis best chance would be a mad bullrush early in the fight and hope that something lands or he maybe gets a wilf takedown and GnP.

The analysis mainly comes from his entrances vs Hunt, probably the best counterpuncher he faced, which looked rather sloppy and let him open to get countered or end up in the clinch in a disadvantegous position. Also vs a way less composed striker - but big and powerful - in Brett Rogers.

If such an experienced striker as Overeem throws and ducks in such an sloppy way is because the threat of Ngannou counters are more threatening that you seem to give him credit for.

Its remarkable that you have more confidence in Fedor's boxing/ching than Fedor himself has, he was very clear in that he would avoid trading with Francis

 

[DoubleA012]

10. Bob Sapp
9. Rolles Gracie
8. Kimbo Slice
7. Roque Martinez
6. Sean McCorckle
5. Late UFC pregnant Gian Villante
4. Harold Howard
3. Wes Sims
2. Paul Buentello
1. The Consequences

No Kimo?!

 

[TR1]

The analysis mainly comes from his entrances vs Hunt, probably the best counterpuncher he faced, which looked rather sloppy and let him open to get countered or end up in the clinch in a disadvantegous position.

Weird take. Sloppy, yet Fedor had no problems engaging Hunt without being hurt or backed up, engaged the clinch relatively at will, and nearly tapped him within a minute of the fight?
It's pretty clear he wasn't worried about winding up on the bottom with Hunt, hence the wild throws from the clinch.
Also, Fedor was sick coming into the fight.

Sorry but I can't help to ask you, since you are a Silva fan. If we use this style analysis, and say, look @ Anderson's problems with people controlling him on the ground, one could extrapolate he wouldn't be favored against half of the MW divison, and certainly not vs most of it after he lost, given how many top heavy grapplers and powerfull wrestlers it got. Somehow though, I don't see you subscribing to this argument.

 

[pankrat]

Weird take. Sloppy, yet Fedor had no problems engaging Hunt without being hurt or backed up, engaged the clinch relatively at will, and nearly tapped him within a minute of the fight?
It's pretty clear he wasn't worried about winding up on the bottom with Hunt, hence the wild throws from the clinch.
Also, Fedor was sick coming into the fight.

Sorry but I can't help to ask you, since you are a Silva fan. If we use this style analysis, and say, look @ Anderson's problems with people controlling him on the ground, one could extrapolate he wouldn't be favored against half of the MW divison, and certainly not vs most of it after he lost, given how many top heavy grapplers and powerfull wrestlers it got. Somehow though, I don't see you subscribing to this argument.

02:20 - mouthwatering uppercut for Francis in Fedor's very first entrance into the clinch

06:10 - Its Hunt now who rushes into the clinch after quite a good time on top, Fedor takes punches along the way althoug breaks with a good knee

06:31 - Fedor's 2nd attempt to get a hold of Hunt, an sloppy, barely set up single leg easily stuffed by Hunt. Fedor goes for a desperate trip and ends on his back..in side mount.

Sorry but I can't help to ask you, since you are a Silva fan. If we use this style analysis, and say, look @ Anderson's problems with people controlling him on the ground, one could extrapolate he wouldn't be favored against half of the MW divison, and certainly not vs most of it after he lost, given how many top heavy grapplers and powerfull wrestlers it got. Somehow though, I don't see you subscribing to this argument.

What I said is that consider Ngannou probably the toughest match up for Fedor.
I give Fedor a good chance vs Jones or Cormier, and just about anybody else.

Now look at what you extrapolated about Silva lol.
Furthermore, the opponents who got any control of prime Silva in the clinch/ground were way, way more profficient grapplers than Hunt

 

[TR1]

You are being a serious cherry picker man.

02:20 - mouthwatering uppercut for Francis in Fedor's very first entrance into the clinch

What lol? Fedor looked fine in that sequence. If that is your analysis, then WTF do you make of you Ngannu's entrance vs Bigi? Mouthwater for anyone who knows how to counter! What about his sloppy entrances in Stipe 1? Omg, so mouthwatering!
This logic is asinine because it can be applied to every fight by any fighter to pick "weak spots".

You then conveniently ignore Fedor taking him down and nearly finishing Hunt seconds later. His mistake for letting go of the armbar, but he nearly had it.

06:10 - Its Hunt now who rushes into the clinch, Fedor takes punches along the way althoug breaks with a good knee

??? Omg, a fighter takes a punch? You mean like Hunt did when Fedor countered him in that exchange?
When Silva has good head movement "Omg da Matrix omg amazing" when other fighters do it it is somehow a weakness. Ok then.

06:31 - Fedor's 2nd attempt to get a hold of Hunt, an sloppy, barely set up single leg easily stuffed by Hunt. Fedor goes for a desperate trip and ends on his back..in side mount.

Yes, he got sloppy vs Hunt on this takedown. Fair point, and probably has to do with disregarding Hunt's grappling.

What I said is that consider Ngannou probably the toughest match up for Fedor.

That's fair.

Furthermore, the opponents who got any control of prime Silva in the ground were way, way more profficient grapplers than Hunt

Being tapped by Takase or flying heel hooked is much much worse than messing up a takedown vs Hunt.
If your argument is "not prime", thats a seperate debate. But then again I somehow doubt you cherry pick Anderson dropped by Chael and what that says about his striking either.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

The analysis mainly comes from his entrances vs Hunt, probably the best counterpuncher he faced, which looked rather sloppy and let him open to get countered or end up in the clinch in a disadvantegous position. Also vs a way less composed striker - but big and powerful - in Brett Rogers.

If such an experienced striker as Overeem throws and ducks in such an sloppy way is because the threat of Ngannou counters are more threatening that you seem to give him credit for.

Its remarkable that you have more confidence in Fedor's boxing/ching than Fedor himself has, he was very clear in that he would avoid trading with Francis

I don't recall Hunt landing any good counters in that fight, my memory is he landed 2-3 decent punchs but when he was on offence and a few more we slipped.

Overeem maybe experienced but the reality is his technique in aggressive boxing exchanges was never good, he could land good one off counters but when he was put under pressure he almost always looked rather sloppy as he was here. Honestly I think that is the single biggest weakness across Reems career rather than chin or cardio.

I wouldnt be supprised if his preffered gameplan would be to take Francis down(as it was vs Hunt) if he could but thats not the same as saying he couldnt beat him standing.

 

[pankrat]

I don't recall Hunt landing any good counters in that fight, my memory is he landed 2-3 decent punchs but when he was on offence and a few more we slipped.

Overeem maybe experienced but the reality is his technique in aggressive boxing exchanges was never good, he could land good one off counters but when he was put under pressure he almost always looked rather sloppy as he was here.

I wouldnt be supprised if his preffered gameplan would be to take Francis down(as it was vs Hunt) if he could but thats not the same as saying he couldnt beat him standing.

I stand by the opinion that Fedor didnt face many if any strong, powerful counter puncher in the caliber of Ngannou. The ones that resemble the most are Hunt and Brett in different ways, and my analysis is that Ngannou would pose a huge threat for Fedor

I don't recall Hunt landing any good counters in that fight.

I think Ngannou could capitalize on this:

02:20 - mouthwatering uppercut for Francis in Fedor's very first entrance into the clinch

06:10 - Its Hunt now who rushes into the clinch after quite a good time on top, Fedor takes punches along the way althoug breaks with a good knee

06:31 - Fedor's 2nd attempt to get a hold of Hunt, an sloppy, barely set up single leg easily stuffed by Hunt. Fedor goes for a desperate trip and ends on his back..in side mount.

 

[pankrat]

Being tapped by Takase or flying heel hooked is much much worse than messing up a takedown vs Hunt.
If your argument is "not prime", thats a seperate debate. But then again I somehow doubt you cherry pick Anderson dropped by Chael and what that says about his striking either.

I said that Fedor's opponents that resemble the most the kind of approach/threat Ngannou is were Hunt and Rogers. I say that imo the match up favours Ngannou for the reasons stated.

Its what I think and you refering Takase, making silly extrapolations or not even getting the point in the 1st place brings noting to me

To follow up your stupid extrapolation, Anderson at 40 something was giving Adesanya all he could handle, or stopping Brunson's wrestling. Fedor at the same age was easy work for Meathead or Bader, exploiting btw the same kind of downfall I see in his math up with Ngannou.
Furthermore, and closing this stupid debate you present, there is no wrestler the caliber of Sonnen in current MW division...unless Khamzat takes over

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I stand by the opinion that Fedor didnt face many if any strong, powerful counter puncher in the caliber of Ngannou. The ones that resemble the most are Hunt and Brett in different ways, and my analysis is that Ngannou would pose a huge threat for Fedor

I think Francis speed and power would definately make for a danger for Fedor(or indeed anyone in MMA history) but I don't think he's some slick counter puncher your hyping him up to be, I'd say Mirko's left straight was much mroe technically sound and indeed guys like Arlovski and Sylvia landed decent counters in their time as well.

Again really I think Reem and Stipe made really bad technical errors against Francis, Reem left himself absolutely wide open to be countered and Stipe rushed forward bolt upright straight into a punch.

Fedor/Crocop really I think must be one of the worst analysed matches in MMA history, I think partly because even at the time guys like Bas were trying to save face a bit after predicting Mirko would have the edge standing. The idea that Fedor won purely via pressure which Mirko couldnt handle is IMHO utter nonsense, Mirko faced loads of guys who tried to chase him down like Wand, Aleks, Herring, etc and he destoryed almost all of them. He was very much set up to deal with that with great defence that didnt just depend on controlling distance but he couldnt do the same to Fedor because he simply had him out gunned technically, his boxing was superior to any of those guys, better timing, keeping his head moving, slipping punches, blocking mid kicks, etc.

Fedor to me is the only HW in MMA history and indeed one of the few guys in MMA as a whole who I felt really looked "loose" as a boxer in a good way. I mean he might not be Roy Jones Jnr or Sugar Ray Leonard but he has more in common with them than anyone else in MMA in terms of not having upright mechanical boxing.

 

[pankrat]

I think Francis speed and power would definately make for a danger for Fedor(or indeed anyone in MMA history) but I don't think he's some slick counter puncher your hyping him up to be, I'd say Mirko's left straight was much mroe technically sound and indeed guys like Arlovski and Sylvia landed decent counters in their time as well.

Again really I think Reem and Stipe made really bad technical errors against Francis, Reem left himself absolutely wide open to be countered and Stipe rushed forward bolt upright straight into a punch.

Fedor/Crocop really I think must be one of the worst analysed matches in MMA history, I think partly because even at the time guys like Bas were trying to save face a bit after predicting Mirko would have the edge standing. The idea that Fedor won purely via pressure which Mirko couldnt handle is IMHO utter nonsense, Mirko faced loads of guys who tried to chase him down like Wand, Aleks, Herring, etc and he destoryed almost all of them. He was very much set up to deal with that with great defence that didnt just depend on controlling distance but he couldnt do the same to Fedor because he simply had him out gunned technically, his boxing was superior to any of those guys, better timing, keeping his head moving, slipping punches, blocking mid kicks, etc.

Overeem and Stipe have holes in their boxing defense / chin. Even more true for Arlovski and Sylvia. Its nonsense to discredit those to overlook the latter.

Mirko wasn't that great striker in close quarters. Had great understanding of distances, movement, mid-long range devastating kicks and indeed a nice long straight left reasons why I think would be one of the toughest match ups ever for Francis, but didnt really liked to stand his feet and trade punches in close.
Francis on the other hand build his game around meet you there and Fedor could get sloppy/overagressive/hadicapped by size and I dont like that match up for him.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Overeem and Stipe have holes in their boxing defense / chin. Even more true for Arlovski and Sylvia. Its nonsense to discredit those to overlook the latter.

Mirko wasn't that great striker in close quarters. Had great understanding of distances, movement, mid-long range devastating kicks and indeed a nice a nice long straight left reasons why I think would be one of the toughest match ups ever for Francis, but didnt really liked to stand his feet and trade punches in close.
Francis on the other hand build his game around meet you there and Fedor could get sloppy/overagressive/hadicapped by size and I dont like that match up for him.

But Mirko wasnt the kind of devastating counterpuncher

Oh I think he was, the left straight and the body kick could both be devastating counters to fighters closing him down.

Mirko could obviously pick his offence from mid range very well but his gameplan was often to do exactlyt what you say Ngannou did vs Reem, he would pressure opponents forcing them to exchange and then counter them.

I think Francis main threats to Fedor would be his size, speed, chin and the hope of landing something early in a wild fight, the idea he'd pick him apart technically seems rather ill founded to me.

 

[Midget Boxer]

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
3. Fabricio Werdum
4. Mirko Cro Cop
5. Josh Barnett
6. Junior Dos Santos
7. Stipe Miocic
8. Alistair Overeem
9. Andrei Arlovski
10. Cain Velasquez


Cormier, Igor, Randy, Tim, Ngannou, Arlovski, Sergei are all very close to 8 through 10. Any of those guys could be interchangeable really. I feel strongly about the top 7 though.

Lmfaoo 6-7 guys over stipe??

 

[cheesus]

Cain at #3 above Nog is a good joke.

 

[Glove]

I don't enjoy doing a ranking system...but if i had to choose ten of the best heavyweights in MMA history, that i ever saw. I would list the following:

Fedor Emelianenko
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
Mirko Filipovic
Cain Velasquez
Fabricio Werdum
Stipe Miocic
Josh Barnett
Junior Dos Santos
Daniel Cormier
Francis Ngannou

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Lmfaoo 6-7 guys over stipe??

Yes. Stipe was a good Heavyweight. He won the title and has enough wins over ranked fighters to be one of the best HWs ever. There are only a few guys ranked ahead of him and they all have longer and more impressive resumes. So it's no disrespect to Stipe. There are just a few guys that were more proven than him.

 

[The Last King]

1.Fedor
2.Nog
3.Cormier
4.JDS
5.Stipe
6.Werdum
7.CroCop
8.AA