Tony BJJ any better than Dustin’s?

[mkess101]

Yeah, but does that change much of my argument? Lentz and miller are still higher level grapplers and oliveira has still submitted more bjj black belts than tony. Tony has submitted better fighters, but oliveira has submitted more high level grapplers.

I don't really think you can debate this to be honest. Tony is the better fighter for sure, though, but he just hasn't shown the grappling dominance over the amount of high level grapplers that oliveira has shown. Then again, Tony hasn't been submitted three times either (only once for tony). Although, Oliveira has only been submitted by black belts, where as tony has been submitted by...some guy I can't even really find on google. you can say tony was young back then, but he was 26, the same age Do bronx was when he last got submitted.

Well...age is hardly as important as fight experience. I'm pretty sure you know that though.

And again, grappling is about so much more than subs. Tony gets put on his back and mounted by Lee and absorbs zero damage, regains guard, and ends the round fresh as a daisy while making his opponent expend a bunch of energy that later leads to him being subbed. Do Bronx is on his back vs Felder for barely any time and he has no clue how to defend himself and gets mauled and TKO'd. If we're talking about MMA grappling, that stuff matters. A lot.

 

[fortheo]

Well...age is hardly as important as fight experience. I'm pretty sure you know that though.

And again, grappling is about so much more than subs. Tony gets put on his back and mounted by Lee and absorbs zero damage, regains guard, and ends the round fresh as a daisy while making his opponent expend a bunch of energy that later leads to him being subbed. Do Bronx is on his back vs Felder for barely any time and he has no clue how to defend himself and gets mauled and TKO'd. If we're talking about MMA grappling, that stuff matters. A lot.

Both guys have been grappling since they were young, so in terms of grappling experience, I think their age matters when comparing them here. Tony didn't take zero damage from lee, but Yes, you're right, about Do bronx putting himself in bad positions, but like you said Tony does it too, he's just one of the toughest fucking bastards out there and doesn't crumble like do bronx. I don't attribute that to his grappling, because positionally he puts himself in just as much danger as Do bronx does. The last time Tony faced a D 1 guy, he was on his back the whole time, he wasn't beating a d 1 guy with grappling (like do bronx has),he was getting positionally dominated, but he squeaked by castillo with mostly elbows off his back

Even when Tony does beat high level grapplers, he typically hurts them on the feet first or hurts them with elbows.
None of this really counters the fact that Tony hasn't beaten the amount of high level grapplers that Oliveira has beaten. I think this is of more importance when comparing grappling levels. I also know you'd sooner kill your dog before you say anything that could even come close to slighting Tony's skill level lol.

 

[Pem123]

Tony has the best BJJ in the LW division by far.
Y'all don't know bout Tenth planet it seems.

Charles Oliveira has better BJJ.

Tony is good, but Charles is better.

 

[Robotnickx]

Tony is better at everything than Poirier by a mile.

His crazy mentality hides how good he really is. Can't wait for this fight.

 

[mkess101]

Both guys have been grappling since they were young, so in terms of grappling experience, I think their age matters when comparing them here. Tony didn't take zero damage from lee, but Yes, you're right, about Do bronx putting himself in bad positions, but like you said Tony does it too, he's just one of the toughest fucking bastards out there and doesn't crumble like do bronx. I don't attribute that to his grappling, because positionally he puts himself in just as much danger as Do bronx does. The last time Tony faced a D 1 guy, he was on his back the whole time, he wasn't beating a d 1 guy with grappling (like do bronx has),he was getting positionally dominated, but he squeaked by castillo with mostly elbows off his back

None of this really counters the fact that Tony hasn't beaten the amount of high level grapplers that Oliveira has beaten. I think this is of more importance when comparing grappling levels. I also know you'd sooner kill your dog before you say anything that could even come close to slighting Tony's skill level lol.

Tony really didn't absorb any damage (to his face anyway) vs Lee on the mat. I promise, you watch that fight and Lee landed literally one punch that entire time to Tony's face, and it wasn't flush. It was a glancing blow.

Anyway, this isn't to slight Charles' skills. But take one common opponent, Pettis. Anthony had a good back and forth grappling match with Charles, and Pettis ended up with the better of it and subbed him. Pettis went into Tony's guard after landing that good punch and having Tony roll around to recover. Pettis was there for about 30 seconds and as soon as Tony got his feet on Anthony's hips, Pettis decided "You know what...nah...I don't like this at all."

I think saying Oliveira is the better offensive submission fighter is fair for sure. But that's different than him being the better overall MMA grappler.


And that's not true about killing my dog either bro! I love my dog, and as much a fan I am of Tony I have criticized him before. It's just not...very often LOL.

 

[moosaev]

Tony was able to tap ALL of those guys, who Khabib took to decision. Do we really need to argue if he's one of the most proven submission grapplers in the division?

You’re putting too much of a premium on submissions. Can you honestly say with a straight face that Tony was more impressive against Barboza than Khabib was? Context matters. Tony was in a war against Barboza, while Khabib ran through Barboza with complete ease. I don’t particularly care if he didn’t get the submissions, khabib’s dominant decisions are arguably more impressive than most fighters finishes because he displays absolute control, with the exception of the Tibau fight perhaps. Tony on the other hand has many submission victories where he was dropped, mounted, and really struggled throughout. Kudos to him for being a strong finisher but he takes a lot of damage. This game is about winning while incurring the least amount of damage possible, that is the North Star goal for all fighters. And Khabib is accomplishing this better than any MMA fighter in history so far.

 

[fortheo]

Tony really didn't absorb any damage (to his face anyway) vs Lee on the mat. I promise, you watch that fight and Lee landed literally one punch that entire time to Tony's face, and it wasn't flush. It was a glancing blow.

Anyway, this isn't to slight Charles' skills. But take one common opponent, Pettis. Anthony had a good back and forth grappling match with Charles, and Pettis ended up with the better of it and subbed him. Pettis went into Tony's guard after landing that good punch and having Tony roll around to recover. Pettis was there for about 30 seconds and as soon as Tony got his feet on Anthony's hips, Pettis decided "You know what...nah...I don't like this at all."

I think saying Oliveira is the better offensive submission fighter is fair for sure. But that's different than him being the better overall MMA grappler.


And that's not true about killing my dog either bro! I love my dog, and as much a fan I am of Tony I have criticized him before. It's just not...very often LOL.

I stand by my opinion, and Pettis deciding to let a guy up after just rocking him across the octagon doesn't change my mind.

I'm glad you love your dog though. I like my dog morr than 99 percent of humans that I know

 

[DoctorStoppage]

Anybody who thinks Poirier’s BJJ is in the same stratosphere as Tony’s is severely misinformed

 

[mkess101]

I stand by my opinion, and Pettis deciding to let a guy up after just rocking him across the octagon doesn't change my mind.

I'm glad you love your dog though. I like my dog morr than 99 percent of humans that I know

Tony had clearly recovered at that point though. Pettis was in a position he'd never willingly give up vs almost anyone, but he did vs Tony. Just sayin'.

I'm not saying anything else negative about Do Bronx though. He's the kind of fighter I love to watch and root for because he goes for finishes, so I'm only going to speak positively about him now. The kid is very good offensively and probably still has room to improve his overall game. I hope he makes a serious run at the top 5 soon.

 

[Paladin]

Probably yeah. On his 12 fight win streak, he does have something like 6-7 top 10 wins and I think 3 top 5 wins? RDA was ranked 2nd so I think based on "rankings" he'd be the best win.

He's fought pretty much nothing but top 10 guys over the second half of his streak, aside from Lando who was a last minute replacement.

And the Chinese Kung fu guy .. oh my that was a weird fight

 

[pakubumi]

sub by can

 

[VVarhead]

Charles Oliveira has better BJJ.

Tony is good, but Charles is better.

You're probably right since Charles holds the record I can not take that from him.

 

[Omega Man]

Tony has the best BJJ in the LW division by far.
Y'all don't know bout Tenth planet it seems.

Exactly. 10th planet is not your average BJJ school.

 

[mkess101]

And the Chinese Kung fu guy .. oh my that was a weird fight

Kikuno. Yeah, that was way back at the start of his win streak though.

 

[X^flottigliaMAS]

Cucuy is winning by refusing to lose. At a deep level

 

[TapMachine]

Davi Ramos is the one who has the best BJJ at LW, Ferguson cultists suggesting otherwise and putting him above Ramos are outright insane.

Dustin has outgrappled better opponents than Ferguson has, since he subbed Pettis. Outgrappling Pettis is a bigger achievement than anything Ferguson has ever done, grappling wise.

Now, I know that Ferguson cultists are going to claim that Ferguson's submission wins over Lee and Tibau are better than outgrappling Pettis, but these non-arguments are indicators of the said cultists being outright retarded and ignoring the circumstances of the said wins:
1. Tibau was badly hurt on the feet to the point where he was forced into a turtling position. He was literally providing absolutely no resistance and defending blindly against GnP, the fight might have been stopped at that point and no one would have protested the decision. It was then that Ferguson took Tibau's back. In other words, Ferguson subbed a literally non-resisting opponent.
2. Lee was completely gassed out at the end of round 3, he was literally sleeping in Ferguson's guard and offering no resistance whatsoever. It was then that Ferguson slapped a triangle on an already half-dead Lee. In other words, Ferguson subbed a literally non-resisting opponent.
His wins over these opponents were legit, but he didn't outgrapple any of them: Tibau was badly hurt on the feet and Lee gassed out after completely dominating Ferguson on the ground.

If we keep the same inbred Ferguson cultist """logic""" stating that outgrappling non-resisting, heavily compromised opponents is an expression of BJJ prowess, one can say that Islam outgrappled Ramos by shutting down his guard game and feeding him punches from guard - the guard of an ADCC champ who subbed fucking Monson from bottom. This, according to Ferguson cultist """logic""", makes Islam the best BJJ practitioner at LW.

Also, Khabib outgrappled RDA and RDA > anyone Ferguson has ever outgrappled even if we forget about the circumstances of his wins over Tibau and Lee. Khabib's BJJ > Ferguson's... and Khabib doesn't even train BJJ outside of rolling with other members of AKA.

TL;DR: Ferguson cultists are retarded and are heavily overrating his subpar BJJ that has been shut down by such world-class grapplers as Castillo and Lee.

 

[rjmbrd]

You’re putting too much of a premium on submissions. Can you honestly say with a straight face that Tony was more impressive against Barboza than Khabib was?

Emphatically, yes.

Tony isn't accidentally winning 12 fights in a row. He put away Barboza, Trujillo and Tibau, while Khabib took all three to decisions. It should not need to be explained that tapping your opponent is more impressive.

Tony is willing to take risks where Khabib has a more risk averse style. High risk high reward, but both guys are winning consistently so its hard to criticize either.

If you are asking me - could Tony have been a point fighter against Barboza and won a decision instead? Yes. Of course he could.

 

[moosaev]

Emphatically, yes.

Tony isn't accidentally winning 12 fights in a row. He put away Barboza, Trujillo and Tibau, while Khabib took all three to decisions. It should not need to be explained that tapping your opponent is more impressive.

Tony is willing to take risks where Khabib has a more risk averse style. High risk high reward, but both guys are winning consistently so its hard to criticize either.

If you are asking me - could Tony have been a point fighter against Barboza and won a decision instead? Yes. Of course he could.

We just disagree then. Like I said, the essence of the fight game is to win with as little damage as possible. Submissions are a proxy for that, because the more submissions the less rounds and the less damage. But Khabib has flipped the script because even without submissions he's not taking ANY damage! Barboza gave Tony more damage than he gave Khabib, that is an objective fact. Khabib has basically hacked the fight game, he's fighting with cheat codes.

 

[Paladin]

Davi Ramos is the one who has the best BJJ at LW, Ferguson cultists suggesting otherwise and putting him above Ramos are outright insane.

Dustin has outgrappled better opponents than Ferguson has, since he subbed Pettis. Outgrappling Pettis is a bigger achievement than anything Ferguson has ever done, grappling wise.

Now, I know that Ferguson cultists are going to claim that Ferguson's submission wins over Lee and Tibau are better than outgrappling Pettis, but these non-arguments are indicators of the said cultists being outright retarded and ignoring the circumstances of the said wins:
1. Tibau was badly hurt on the feet to the point where he was forced into a turtling position. He was literally providing absolutely no resistance and defending blindly against GnP, the fight might have been stopped at that point and no one would have protested the decision. It was then that Ferguson took Tibau's back. In other words, Ferguson subbed a literally non-resisting opponent.
2. Lee was completely gassed out at the end of round 3, he was literally sleeping in Ferguson's guard and offering no resistance whatsoever. It was then that Ferguson slapped a triangle on an already half-dead Lee. In other words, Ferguson subbed a literally non-resisting opponent.
His wins over these opponents were legit, but he didn't outgrapple any of them: Tibau was badly hurt on the feet and Lee gassed out after completely dominating Ferguson on the ground.

If we keep the same inbred Ferguson cultist """logic""" stating that outgrappling non-resisting, heavily compromised opponents is an expression of BJJ prowess, one can say that Islam outgrappled Ramos by shutting down his guard game and feeding him punches from guard - the guard of an ADCC champ who subbed fucking Monson from bottom. This, according to Ferguson cultist """logic""", makes Islam the best BJJ practitioner at LW.

Also, Khabib outgrappled RDA and RDA > anyone Ferguson has ever outgrappled even if we forget about the circumstances of his wins over Tibau and Lee. Khabib's BJJ > Ferguson's... and Khabib doesn't even train BJJ outside of rolling with other members of AKA.

TL;DR: Ferguson cultists are retarded and are heavily overrating his subpar BJJ that has been shut down by such world-class grapplers as Castillo and Lee.

You think Ramos is better than Ryan Hall? I doubt it

 

[sherdogwantedtonamemekiki]

Wasn't he a college wrestler?