Tony BJJ any better than Dustin’s?

[tasticles]

It takes about 8-10 year for the average guy who trains 3 days per week to get a BB. 7 years for a professional fighter is totally reasonable especially when you factor in the previous mat time from MMA training as well as the nearly 20 years of wrestling he had up to that point. Guys that are decent wrestlers who transition to BJJ make super fast progress. They've already got the spacial awareness, they know how to control another person's weight/body, and they've got incredible balance/strength which gives them a fantastic base to learn submissions, sweeps, escapes, and passes.

Exactly. You should be able to get it done in 5 if you're training seriously as a pro. They work at twice the rate of even a dedicated enthusiast.

 

[ThoskaBrah]

It's not that difficult to analyze what is probably gonna happen. We know that Khabib is better than anybody on the ground in the LW division, and it seems by a large margin. Now that everybody agrees Khabib > Tony on the ground, we can say if the fight goes to the ground Khabib is the favourite and will thus be prepared for any tricks Tony supposedly possesses.

 

[R3DV1P3Rx28]

No offense, but you're just wrong. And quite frankly, I really love watching Oliveira fight. He's incredibly entertaining, his sub game is definitely top tier, and it actually looks like he's improved his striking significantly too based on how he was busting up Teymur. (Yes, I do watch the fights. I've seen pretty much all of Do Bronx UFC fights, some multiple times).

Bottom line: He's a very dangerous submission fighter with very good bjj. But it's not the best in the division, and honestly it's not really all that close. He wasn't "dominating" Pettis with his grappling before being subbed. It was a back and forth grappling contest, with both guys getting sweeps, advantageous positions, etc. It was super entertaining actually. And quite frankly, Pettis is underrated on the mat so it's not some shameful thing to get bested by him there. But it shows the holes that do exist in Charles' grappling game due to how he is overaggressive. Not just in going for subs. He sometimes tries to pass recklessly and gets swept too.

Also, to clarify, my assumption was that this was a discussion about the best MMA-adapted bjj, not about who you'd bank on winning a grappling match. If you are talking about simply grappling competitions where things like durability, the ability to avoid strikes on the mat, etc. then maybe I'd look at it a bit differently?

you make some good points. I think you might be forgetting about how Charles has a strength disadvantage in pretty much every lw fight he's in. Strength is one of if not the biggest factor in grappling. This is completely subjective since we can't really prove anything here, I understand your opinion tho. just don't get how u can claim I'm wrong as if it were fact, especially considering he has the most subs in the ufc. still think Charles has the best jits in lw skillwise, just unfortunate for him he's either too drawn out from weightcuts or he's giving up too much of a strength advantage. I'm glad to hear that you appreciate watching him tho, most ppl don't really give him any creds

 

[H20]

The amount of time you put into something is not what makes you better at it than someone else. Being better than someone at something makes you better at it than them.

 

[mkess101]

you make some good points. I think you might be forgetting about how Charles has a strength disadvantage in pretty much every lw fight he's in. Strength is one of if not the biggest factor in grappling. This is completely subjective since we can't really prove anything here, I understand your opinion tho. just don't get how u can claim I'm wrong as if it were fact, especially considering he has the most subs in the ufc. still think Charles has the best jits in lw skillwise, just unfortunate for him he's either too drawn out from weightcuts or he's giving up too much of a strength advantage. I'm glad to hear that you appreciate watching him tho, most ppl don't really give him any creds

That's 100% true regarding his physicality. Like you said, there's no way to quantify it but I totally agree that (for example) he might get swept in a certain spot not due to a technical error but purely because he's at a physical disadvantage.

But...he IS over aggressive at times, and it costs him. It's also probably one of the reasons he secures so many subs so there's good along with the bad. But the truly elite grapplers figure out when to stamp on the pedal and when to bide their time. I think he still has things to learn on that front.

I think he's actually still making strides, especially with his striking. I'm not ready to write him off as a possible contender yet. He's had a ton of fights but he's still relatively young I think.

 

[FinalConflict2005]

His long limbs make his body way more efficient for BJJ than Dustins.

Pardon?

 

[fortheo]

No offense, but you're just wrong. And quite frankly, I really love watching Oliveira fight. He's incredibly entertaining, his sub game is definitely top tier, and it actually looks like he's improved his striking significantly too based on how he was busting up Teymur. (Yes, I do watch the fights. I've seen pretty much all of Do Bronx UFC fights, some multiple times).

Bottom line: He's a very dangerous submission fighter with very good bjj. But it's not the best in the division, and honestly it's not really all that close. He wasn't "dominating" Pettis with his grappling before being subbed. It was a back and forth grappling contest, with both guys getting sweeps, advantageous positions, etc. It was super entertaining actually. And quite frankly, Pettis is underrated on the mat so it's not some shameful thing to get bested by him there. But it shows the holes that do exist in Charles' grappling game due to how he is overaggressive. Not just in going for subs. He sometimes tries to pass recklessly and gets swept too.

Also, to clarify, my assumption was that this was a discussion about the best MMA-adapted bjj, not about who you'd bank on winning a grappling match. If you are talking about simply grappling competitions where things like durability, the ability to avoid strikes on the mat, etc. then maybe I'd look at it a bit differently?

Oliveira has arguably submitted the higher level grapplers in MMA, though. Oliveira submitted 3 high level BJJ black belts and 2 div I NCAA wrestlers in the ufc. Ferg hasn't submitted any div I wrestlers and only one BJJ black belt in the UFC.

Lentz Is a division I wrestler who has only been submitted twice out of 43 fights and he was a legit top 10 FW

Elkins made his entire career out of out toughing fighters and out grappling them. He's been submitted once in 32 fights, and that was by Oliveira.

Jim Miller: div I wrestler and high level BJJ black belt.... submitted by Oliveira.

Hioki was widely considered a top BJJ guy at FW. He's been submitted once out of 43 fights.....that one time by Oliveira.

Jury Is another BJJ black belt. Only one sub loss on his record....again by Oliveira.


The best grappler tony has subbed in MMA would be lee or Tibau I guess?

Clearly tony has subbed better fighters, but he hasn't submitted better grapplers, and styles matter in this discussion.

 

[rjmbrd]

Strength is one of if not the biggest factor in grappling.

Rafa Mendes and Marcelo Garcia were not the strongest or biggest guys in their division.

Roger Gracie is the greatest of all time on paper and he's built with a concave chest. He looks like gumby, go count the number of Absolute division gold medals on his wall. He was not physically stronger then those opponents.

Skill is the biggest factor in grappling, especially when it comes to the elite.

 

[rjmbrd]

Lentz Is a division I wrestler

Post all of Lentz's collegiate wrestling statistics.

Lentz has zero accomplishments in Division I wrestling and was cast out because he couldn't hack it. He was a great high school wrestler that didn't make it at the next level. Best I can tell he was a walk on that competed for one season, don't think he was in the lineup.

Jim Miller: div I wrestler and high level BJJ black belt.... submitted by Oliveira.

Post all of Jim Miller's collegiate wrestling stats. He was a walk-on on and competed for less then one season, best I can tell.

Miller and Oliveira are 1-1, they each own a submission over the other.

Oliveira was the third guy to tap out Mililer in the UFC, after Diaz and Chiesa respectively. Still a very solid accomplishment.

 

[fortheo]

Post all of Lentz's collegiate wrestling statistics.

Lentz has zero accomplishments in Division I wrestling and was cast out because he couldn't hack it. He was a great high school wrestler that didn't make it at the next level. Best I can tell he was a walk on that competed for one season, don't think he was in the lineup.





Post all of Jim Miller's collegiate wrestling stats. He was a walk-on on and competed for less then one season, best I can tell.

Miller and Oliveira are 1-1, they each own a submission over the other.

Oliveira was the third guy to tap out Mililer in the UFC, after Diaz and Chiesa respectively. Still a very solid accomplishment.

Post all the div I wrestling stats and accomplishments of the guys tony subbed in the UFC. And post all the BJJ black belts he subbed in the UFC.

He's got Tibau, And that's it.

 

[gevoudane]

Tony did BJJ before 10th planet. Did he say he didnt? He was a student at Paragon JJ run by Ricardo Miller. Thats one thing he would mentioned that separates him from normal wrestlers back in the day.

 

[mkess101]

Oliveira has arguably submitted the higher level grapplers in MMA, though. Oliveira submitted 3 high level BJJ black belts and 2 div I NCAA wrestlers in the ufc. Ferg hasn't submitted any div I wrestlers and only one BJJ black belt in the UFC.

Lentz Is a division I wrestler who has only been submitted twice out of 43 fights and he was a legit top 10 FW

Elkins made his entire career out of out toughing fighters and out grappling them. He's been submitted once in 32 fights, and that was by Oliveira.

Jim Miller: div I wrestler and high level BJJ black belt.... submitted by Oliveira.

Hioki was widely considered a top BJJ guy at FW. He's been submitted once out of 43 fights.....that one time by Oliveira.

Jury Is another BJJ black belt. Only one sub loss on his record....again by Oliveira.


The best grappler tony has subbed in MMA would be lee or Tibau I guess?

Clearly tony has subbed better fighters, but he hasn't submitted better grapplers, and styles matter in this discussion.

But bjj and grappling isn't just about who you've subbed (though that's part of it). Oliveira has also BEEN subbed in the UFC (multiple times), and in other instances he's gotten himself into bad spots by taking poor risks with postion. To be fair, Tony has done this at times too. But when you talk about MMA adapted grappling, avoiding damage on the mat is a HUGE part of it for guys who sometimes end up on their back (be it by getting taken down or by pulling guard--or by getting swept).

Contrast Tony when he was mounted by Lee. He constantly moved, rolled, and did everything he needed to in order to avoid damage. And Lee only landed punches to Tony's arms and chest. He did no damage, and Tony regained guard with a few seconds left in the round. Contrast that with what Felder did to Oliveira once Charles was on his back. It's just one example (and it's not totally apples to apples as Charles was trapped against the cage) but it's for the point of illustrating how much more goes into MMA grappling.

Part of the problem is, separating out disciplines in MMA is largely a fool's errand. The different aspects of the sport blend into each other too much now to completely separate them.

 

[mkess101]

Post all the div I wrestling stats and accomplishments of the guys tony subbed in the UFC. And post all the BJJ black belts he subbed in the UFC.

He's got Tibau, And that's it.

Trujillo wasn't D1 but he was pretty decorated at the level he wrestled at in college, wasn't he?

 

[rjmbrd]

Post all the div I wrestling stats and accomplishments of the guys tony subbed in the UFC. And post all the BJJ black belts he subbed in the UFC.

He's got Tibau, And that's it.

I was just adding context.

If you didn't compete for even a single full season and have no posted record - and entered the program as a walk-on - its tough to describe that as a "Division I wrestler" here because some may think it means something different then the reality of it.

Its hard to go just on submission statistics here in an MMA adapted context because Oliveria has been tapped multiple times and blown out of the water in the UFC, while Tony has never been tapped in 13 fights, and has lost a single decision.

They share a common opponent in Pettis - who tapped out Do Bronx. Tony beat and out worked Pettis so bad he refused to answer the bell.

Cerrone knocked out Oliveira, and Tony beat Cowboy until he was unrecognizable and couldn't continue.

Tony fought Barboza, Trujillo and Tibau all within reasonable proximity to Khabib. Tony was able to tap ALL of those guys, who Khabib took to decision. Do we really need to argue if he's one of the most proven submission grapplers in the division?

 

[chrass]

He beats the piss out of guys when he has the freedom to move around

Khabib will put him in a straitjacket

I might be just being optomistic i like khabib but whenever a dominant champ is just dominating in the wrestling department i find myself trying to think of paths to victory for the challenger. Either way its a great fight

 

[TheJohnnyWalkerEra]

I might be just being optomistic i like khabib but whenever a dominant champ is just dominating in the wrestling department i find myself trying to think of paths to victory for the challenger. Either way its a great fight

I love this fight but I don't see Tony doing much on the ground. Khabib will grapevine his legs and hold a wrist

Tony could scramble to his feet and do some damage though, or go for a quick sub before khabib has him locked down

 

[chrass]

I love this fight but I don't see Tony doing much on the ground. Khabib will grapevine his legs and hold a wrist

Tony could scramble to his feet and do some damage though, or go for a quick sub before khabib has him locked down

I think those things will happen but i also think ferguson will make it dirty with the bows from bottom at times im not sayin fergs gonna win from bottom position but i think he can have his moments and im super stoned.

 

[TheJohnnyWalkerEra]

I think those things will happen but i also think ferguson will make it dirty with the bows from bottom at times im not sayin fergs gonna win from bottom position but i think he can have his moments and im super stoned.

LOL, and I'm drunk. Thursday is the new Friday

 

[fortheo]

I was just adding context.

If you didn't compete for even a single full season and have no posted record - and entered the program as a walk-on - its tough to describe that as a "Division I wrestler" here because some may think it means something different then the reality of it.

Its hard to go just on submission statistics here in an MMA adapted context because Oliveria has been tapped multiple times and blown out of the water in the UFC, while Tony has never been tapped in 13 fights, and has lost a single decision.

They share a common opponent in Pettis - who tapped out Do Bronx. Tony beat and out worked Pettis so bad he refused to answer the bell.

Cerrone knocked out Oliveira, and Tony beat Cowboy until he was unrecognizable and couldn't continue.

Tony fought Barboza, Trujillo and Tibau all within reasonable proximity to Khabib. Tony was able to tap ALL of those guys, who Khabib took to decision. Do we really need to argue if he's one of the most proven submission grapplers in the division?

Miller competed at D1 for a year before he left to focus on UFC, from what I found he didn't do too hot. Lentz competed competed at D1 until he dropped out to focus on MMA. Was he the best D1 wrestler ever? no fucking way, but he made it to that level and he was wrestling for one of the best programs in the country and the even gave him a scholarship to go there.

" Lentz finished his high school career as a third place finisher in Minnesota's AAA classification (big school). He then matriculated to the University of Minnesota where he wrestled for legendary coach J. Robinson for two years. He wrestled primarily at 157 pounds, and in his first year he redshirted and earned a respectable 5-5 record at open tournaments. As a sophomore he became an occasional starter, but never seemed to turn the corner and establish himself as a competitive force at the elite end of the Division I level. As a starter for Minnesota, he ran into some ferocious competition in one of the nation's toughest weight classes, and that competition chewed him up pretty badly. It happens. Division I wrestling, particularly Big Ten wrestling, is brutal in ways few can understand.

While I have no way of knowing why Lentz left wrestling after his sophomore season, I would guess that he probably concluded that a full time starting spot on Minnesota's team was not in the future as UM geared up to win a third national championship. Lentz found himself behind NCAA All-Americans and high school legends C.P. Schlatter at 157 pounds and Matt Nagel at 165 pounds (Nagel claimed college wins over Johny Hendricks and Tyron Woodley). Lentz attempted to make his way wrestling for one of the country's top programs, unfortunately, the top does not offer much in terms of room."

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/12...er-the-wrestling-of-chad-mendes-and-nik-lentz


I've given you names and the context that I can give you. You haven't given me anything in rebuttal for Tony's graplling. I can only assume that you agree that Lee and Tibau are the best grapplers he's submitted in the UFC. I stand by my original statement that while Tony has submitted better fighters, Oliveira has submitted more high level grapplers in MMA; and this debate was about who's bjj was better, not who was the better fighter.

It's fair to say that oliveira has also been submitted by black belts in mma too. The last time he was submitted was when he was 26 years old by pettis. Tony was submitted by some guy I can barely find on google when he was 26. I just don't think Tony is as head and shoulders above Oliveira in the grappling department as some others seem to. Who are all these high level grapplers that Tony has submitted?

 

[fortheo]

Trujillo wasn't D1 but he was pretty decorated at the level he wrestled at in college, wasn't he?

Yeah, but does that change much of my argument? Lentz and miller are still higher level grapplers and oliveira has still submitted more bjj black belts than tony. Tony has submitted better fighters, but oliveira has submitted more high level grapplers.

I don't really think you can debate this to be honest. Tony is the better fighter for sure, but he just hasn't shown the grappling dominance over the amount of high level grapplers that oliveira has shown. Even his best sub (over Lee) happened after a pretty dismal first round. His second best grappling performance against Tibau happened after rocking tibau.

Then again, Tony hasn't been submitted three times either (only once for tony). Although, Oliveira has only been submitted by black belts, where as tony has been submitted by...some guy I can't even really find on google. you can say tony was young back then, but he was 26, the same age Do bronx was when he last got submitted.