Tony BJJ any better than Dustin’s?

[Wicked_1]

Tony has a totally different style than Dustin. No one learns and progresses at the same rate. As stated be4, bj was super fast to a black belt. Tony is very good on the ground and has very good BJJ. He is imo better at BJJ than Dustin. I honestly havent seen BJJ from Dustin much even tho he has the belt.
BJJ doesnt help vs khabib anyway. It's not like khabib doesnt know BJJ. He doesnt go by belts etc, but knows it well. He uses it well. He doesnt put himself in positions where BJJ is effective or elbows. Khabib doesnt ever sit in guard. Tony's elbows are effective vs someone in guard. Also the problem vs BJJ, in the positions khabib says, there aren't really any subs to use. It would have to be in anscaramble to catch him. Indont see that happening.

 

[fortheo]

I was just adding context.

If you didn't compete for even a single full season and have no posted record - and entered the program as a walk-on - its tough to describe that as a "Division I wrestler" here because some may think it means something different then the reality of it.

Its hard to go just on submission statistics here in an MMA adapted context because Oliveria has been tapped multiple times and blown out of the water in the UFC, while Tony has never been tapped in 13 fights, and has lost a single decision.

They share a common opponent in Pettis - who tapped out Do Bronx. Tony beat and out worked Pettis so bad he refused to answer the bell.

Cerrone knocked out Oliveira, and Tony beat Cowboy until he was unrecognizable and couldn't continue.

Tony fought Barboza, Trujillo and Tibau all within reasonable proximity to Khabib. Tony was able to tap ALL of those guys, who Khabib took to decision. Do we really need to argue if he's one of the most proven submission grapplers in the division?

We don't need to make conjectures any more. @mkess101

Been saying it for ages. Do bronx had better grappling than tony, and it wasn't even particularly close.

 

[ArabPride99]

We don't need to make conjectures any more. @mkess101

Been saying it for ages. Do bronx had better grappling than tony, and it wasn't even particularly close.

Nice find

 

[mkt]

We don't need to make conjectures any more. @mkess101

Been saying it for ages. Do bronx had better grappling than tony, and it wasn't even particularly close.

Let's see how Oliveira does when he's almost 37 against a fighter who's peaking at age 30. Oliveira may be better better on the ground than the best version of Tony, but what we saw tonight was nowhere near that best version.

 

[fortheo]

Let's see how Oliveira does when he's almost 37 against a fighter who's peaking at age 30. Oliveira may be better better on the ground than the best version of Tony, but what we saw tonight was nowhere near that best version.

In a strictly grappling match, you honestly think that would make a difference between Tony and Charles? We have seem absolutely nothing to suggest that Tony's grappling has regressed. There's no winning on here sometimes. I tell people Do bronx was a better grappler than tony, they fight and Do bronx out grapples tony, but that's not enough proof anymore. We need time machines. For what it's worth, Lee faced both guys when they were near their prime, and Lee also said Do bronx was better on the mat than Tony.

 

[mkt]

In a strictly grappling match, you honestly think that would make a difference between Tony and Charles? We have seem absolutely nothing to suggest that Tony's grappling has regressed. There's no winning on here sometimes. I tell people Do bronx was a better grappler than tony, they fight and Do bronx out grapples tony, but that's not enough proof anymore. We need time machines.

I'm not sure, but you're very different at ages 30 and 37, especially given how hard MMA and grapping training (especially) is on your knees, back, etc. Oliveira is probably a better grappler than prime Tony, but striking also plays a big part. Charles' ability to beat Tony to the punch, do damage and land leg kicks definitely helped him get TDs and helped him in the grappling. You can't isolate grappling alone in an MMA fight.

 

[fortheo]

I'm not sure, but you're very different at ages 30 and 37, especially given how hard MMA and grapping training (especially) is on your knees, back, etc. Oliveira is probably a better grappler than prime Tony, but striking also plays a big part. Charles' ability to beat Tony to the punch, do damage and land leg kicks definitely helped him get TDs and helped him in the grappling. You can't isolate grappling alone in an MMA fight.

I'm not trying to get into a big argument. I debated with guys on here saying that Do bronx was a better grappler than tony. Do bronx just outgrappled Tony. I'm bringing this new evidence to support my previous argument. As for "prime vs prime", we don't even know if Do bronx is in his prime to be honest, and we could argue about when Ferg was in his prime. Lee fought both guys when they were near their prime (maybe) and he agreed that Do bronx was better on the mat. I can't really entertain a hypothetical "prime vs prime' any further than that. I stand by what I always said: Do bronx is a better grappler than Tony, and frankly there's tons of evidence to support that statement.

 

[rjmbrd]

We don't need to make conjectures any more. @mkess101

Been saying it for ages. Do bronx had better grappling than tony, and it wasn't even particularly close.

Tony is 36 and just got the every loving dog shit beaten out of him by JG. He looked bad in his last fight, worse in this one.

BJ Penn was a great grappler until he wasn't. Such is MMA my friend !

For what its worth, prime for prime, I don't see Tony getting tapped by Jim Miller. Their records speak for themselves.

 

[mkt]

Back to the topic at hand, I'd give Tony the edge over Dustin as
1) Dustin has been submitted twice in the UFC. Tony never has. His lone submission loss was in 2009 before UFC and (I'm pretty sure) before he started training at 10th Planet.
2) Tony has submitted more known, veteran UFC fighters and had more recent submission wins (Lee, Barboza, Tibau, Trujillo). Dustin subbed a beat-up Pettis (still impressive) and a very green Holloway in Max's fifth MMA fight.

 

[fortheo]

Tony is 36 and just got the every loving dog shit beaten out of him by JG. He looked bad in his last fight, worse in this one.

BJ Penn was a great grappler until he wasn't. Such is MMA my friend !

For what its worth, prime for prime, I don't see Tony getting tapped by Jim Miller. Their records speak for themselves.

You made your argument when he was 35. Do bronx was the better grappler and still is. He proved it again. Not only does Do bronx have more submissions and more examples of grappling dominance against higher level grapplers, he also flat out beat Tony in a predominatly grappling contest. Not sure how much more proof you need.

 

[rjmbrd]

You made your argument when he was 35.

Tony has since gotten older (obvious?) and then had the ever loving dogshit beaten out of his brains but Justin Gaethje. He looked old (check) and rusty (check) against JG. He looked worse against Do Bronx. When its gone is gone, this is how MMA always works.

Do bronx was the better grappler and still is.

There is no way in hell Ferguson gets TKO'd by Felder in his prime, who was able to casually out muscle him. Let alone getting tapped out by Lamas and Pettis back to back, or Jim Miller. So on and so forth.

Their records speak for themselves.