TKD in MMA?

Being that one of the most fearsome divisions of the Korean Military based their un-armed Combat around TKD, I would suggest you look deeper into the Art itself (and many other Arts I've seen you come into this Forum just to argue about) before rendering such judgements about it.

umm... wich division would that be? Because i know the 707 does not base it's system on TKD.

If someone said the same shit about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, you'd probably shit kittens.

If there were "hidden" moves in BJJ and it was never or rarely used in Sparring/competition. Then i would have no problem with someone saying the exact same thing about BJJ or Muay Thai.

Besides, if you believe for ONE second that such techniques as knees and elbows are not taught for use in Tae Kwon Do by REPUTABLE teachers then that's your own gullibility talking from having seen too-little of Tae Kwon Do.

See, if i wasn't in korea and knew plent of TKD coaches or attend the univeristy where most of the national team comes from I would have to agree with you. As i said before, i guess that the TKD coaches i talked to in korea are not "reputable".
 
Consider this a warning because I see very little difference between what you're doing here and trolling.

well that ends the debate doesn't it? But just one question: Does judo have the techniques that i posted?
 
aaron_mag said:
Blanko. It is a simple concept. Can you not understand the difference between sport competition and the actual art?

I'll answer for him, since it's obvious: "No."

Hey blanko: could you perhaps explain to me the process of "logic" by which you determine that there are no elbow strikes and such in TKD when TKD poomsae, which are simply a collection of organized repetitions of TKD techniques, have these strikes? Have you actually convinced yourself that the architects of TKD, when codifying the forms, said "Let's be sure to add all this stuff we're never going to use!"

Obviously, you're not the slightest bit aware of the fact that Taekwondo is not a single art unto itself, but more like a confederation of arts (Tang Soo Do, Hwarang Do, Hapkido, Tae Kyun) whose varied techniques were distilled into Taekwondo. Real Taekwondo, as EEG has tried to explain to you, isn't kicking, kicking, and more kicking (that would be sport TKD). It includes a variety of hand strikes, throws, joint locks, and such.
 
umm... wich division would that be? Because i know the 707 does not base it's system on TKD.

Ummm, that would be the Tiger division. And I seem to recall your same presence in the thread started where the Tiger division was discussed. And in-fact I think we DID cover that many of the Korean instructors of today are not what they should be or once were for the reason that a lot of Korean both instructors and students take TKD for granted, where other Countries look at it as an honor to practice the Art.
 
Ummm, that would be the Tiger division. And I seem to recall your same presence in the thread started where the Tiger division was discussed.

Well i guess then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think the 707's style is based on TKD. IIRC it's a combined style called "Took gong Mu sul" and might have TKD influnces but to say it's "Based" on TKD is a reach. Oh, and yes i might have joined in on a conversation about the 707.
 
P.S. My TKD instructor, a Kukkiwon-certified instructor and holder of gold and silver medals in WTF state sparring competition, was also a bouncer for a few years, working at a couple of places favored by rednecks and Marines from Quantico. He's forgotten about more street fights than most of us have ever been in. And in the vast, overwhelming majority of these fights, he prevailed without throwing a single kick; kicking has limited practical applications in a tightly-packed bar full of people where drunken combatents mingle with drunks not involved in the fight.

Instead, he deployed a battery of techniques which apprently do not exist in the in the art in which he trained, or did not exist beyond being symbolically represented in some silly "dance" that had no fighting application whatsoever.

I must be sure to start e-mailing him excerpts from some of the authoritative missives about TKD authored by guys like blanko and BlackBeltNow. He'd love them.
 
Well i guess then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think the 707's style is based on TKD. IIRC it's a combined style called "Took gong Mu sul" and might have TKD influnces but to say it's "Based" on TKD is a reach. Oh, and yes i might have joined in on a conversation about the 707.

Hwang Jiang Li was a hand-to-hand Combat Instructor of the Tigers before he went into film. The Art he taught them? Tae Kwon Do. Now I cannot say I know if their fighting style has changed since then (this was in the 60's-70's I believe so I can say that yes it might have indeed changed), but if it did it changed for the worse I would say. Also Ka Sa Fa Wong was a reputable member of that division who learned his Tae Kwon Do directly from Li before he also went into Film. Both of them are regarded as two of the best Tae Kwon Do Artists to have been.
 
P.S. My TKD instructor, a Kukkiwon-certified instructor and holder of gold and silver medals in WTF state sparring competition, was also a bouncer for a few years, working at a couple of places favored by rednecks and Marines from Quantico. He's forgotten about more street fights than most of us have ever been in. And in the vast, overwhelming majority of these fights, he prevailed without throwing a single kick; kicking has limited practical applications in a tightly-packed bar full of people where drunken combatents mingle with drunks not involved in the fight.

Instead, he deployed a battery of techniques which apprently do not exist in the in the art in which he trained, or did not exist beyond being symbolically represented in some silly "dance" that had no fighting application whatsoever.

I must be sure to start e-mailing him excerpts from some of the authoritative missives about TKD authored by guys like blanko and BlackBeltNow. He'd love them.

Dude Aaron teaches Tae Kwon Do and cats STILL tell him he's wrong all the time in here. lol
 
King Kabuki said:
Dude Aaron teaches Tae Kwon Do and cats STILL tell him he's wrong all the time in here. lol

I don't pretend to understand, KK. But there you have it.
 
I don't pretend to understand, KK. But there you have it.

Yeah, that's when you get into a whole other aspect of why people post on the Internet, or oppose things they aren't specifically qualified to give constructive opposition to in the first-place. You don't see me venturing into the Strength and Power Forum to tell people how invalid this or that lift is based on speculation and second-hand knowledge at-best, but then again what do I know? Maybe there's something to it. lol
 
Heh heh...

Haven't been here in awhile.

There are definitely some 'holes' in training in TKD. Lack of good cliche work is probably the most glaring example. I'd be willing to give Blanko that.

But talking about how there are no elbows and knees...I think that EEG explained that well enough.

I think that many people don't understand why the term 'art' is applied to martial arts. They see someone throw a jump spinning hook kick and ask,

"When would you throw that in a real fight?"

When you answer, "Rarely, probably never."

They say, "Then why the frick do you practice it?"

And the answer is because it is fun, different, an excellent coordination drill, and it just might come in handy one day. In other words for grins and giggles.

So then the next logical step is: You're essentially a artist and not a fighter.

But it isn't that simple. Ideally you're training to be both. I won't say who Shogun was fighting (so I don't risk being a spoiler) but the guy threw this amazing jump spinning kick at the beginning of his last match. Obviously he is a fighter. But he is something more than that too. And it shows. He isn't just 'stick to the basics. That is what wins fights.' He is a crazy man. A renegade. You don't know what to expect.

Result. He wins fights and awes people...

I think that is far better than the dogma of, "Only do what 'works'. Stick to these proven moves. Never think outside the box..."

Because all that does is get you in a repetitive and predictable rut...

My opinion only...
 
aaron_mag said:
There are definitely some 'holes' in training in TKD. Lack of good cliche work is probably the most glaring example. I'd be willing to give Blanko that.

Most every styles has "holes," to be sure. Standup arts tend to poorly prepare fighters for being taken down. Grappling is great mano-a-mano but those of us who've seen lots of fights and the environments they tend to occur know that assholes tend travel in, and get into fights, in groups.

What puzzles me is nobody dismisses Muat Thai or BJJ because of this...

I think that many people don't understand why the term 'art' is applied to martial arts. They see someone throw a jump spinning hook kick and ask,

"When would you throw that in a real fight?"

When you answer, "Rarely, probably never."

They say, "Then why the frick do you practice it?"

And the answer is because it is fun, different, an excellent coordination drill, and it just might come in handy one day. In other words for grins and giggles.

I agree somewhat that practicing a martial art involves preserving the art. There is no practical application, for instance, of performing Wai Kru before a Muay Thai match, so why learn it and practice it? Because it's part of the art. It shows respect to the art and the teacher. I think the art aspect separates martial artists from brawlers.

I believe that in most martial arts, most of the genuinely useful stuff is learned very early on. The five basic kicks and Hapkido holds and reversals of TKD are an example. Everything else, which looks largely like flash and show, are just more options.

Example: there's not much use for flying kicks in a real fight. But I've seemed them used in real fights; my instructor, in a bar brawl while working as a bouncer, used a flying sidekick to clear three rows of theater rope by the front door and nail a drunk who was about to lay a beer bottle across the back of another bouncers' head. He's used them maybe two or three times in actual combat, but when he needed to, he had the option.
 
Well that certainly was a good use of a flying side. Best one I've ever heard!!

I think you're not giving BJJ guys enough credit. There are plenty of them that will concede that point. Some of the guys in the grappling forum have told stories about going to the ground and getting their head kicked in by one of the guys buddies. Or even getting in the clinch and getting stabbed. Some pretty scary stuff.

But that can happen to a practitioner of any art. That is just reality versus the fantasy martial arts movie where you clear out the whole bar with your martial arts skill.

Back in the old days we had some bouncers training with us. They always had tons of stories. But the best use I ever found for them was that they would say, "Dude! Good to see you. No, you don't need to pay the cover, go on in..."

You got to feel like a VIP for a brief instant...

Bouncing can be a pretty damn dangerous job while off the clock as well. Some of them had stories of angry guys waiting for them to get off work so they could jump them (usually more than one guy jumping them).
 
aaron_mag said:
I think you're not giving BJJ guys enough credit. There are plenty of them that will concede that point. Some of the guys in the grappling forum have told stories about going to the ground and getting their head kicked in by one of the guys buddies. Or even getting in the clinch and getting stabbed. Some pretty scary stuff.

Maybe I'm not. Though I think I know the story you refer to: someone (I think he goes by "Mirada" who's a mod) mentioned getting shivved while clinching a guy. Likely by one of the dude's friends, as I recall.

I don't think any level-headed person training in anything with one foot in reality thinks they're invincible. The vanity of thinking training = total badass applies to pretty much any art, as you stated.


Back in the old days we had some bouncers training with us. They always had tons of stories. But the best use I ever found for them was that they would say, "Dude! Good to see you. No, you don't need to pay the cover, go on in..."

You got to feel like a VIP for a brief instant...

Yeah, being tight with the doormen is sweet...while everyone else queues up out in the cold for their chance to pay $10 to get in, you waltz right in for free. In the places I hung out in, I knew that if anyone started some shit, they'd wither get shown the door before a fight, or I had four guys covering my back if ti broke out. Though it worked both ways; I found myself "deputized" a few nights when things get especially hairy and the bouncers/doormen needed a little help.

It didn't hurt that being friends with the bouncers = being friends with the bartenders. I used to pay some seriously light tabs back in those days.

Bouncing can be a pretty damn dangerous job while off the clock as well. Some of them had stories of angry guys waiting for them to get off work so they could jump them (usually more than one guy jumping them).

Indeed. Some of the most brutal fights I saw between bouncers and patrons came after last call when the staff was heading to their cars to go home.
 
Gregster said:
Though it worked both ways; I found myself "deputized" a few nights when things get especially hairy and the bouncers/doormen needed a little help.

It is funny you should mention that. I was out with some friends just yesterday and one of them told me a story where they got deputized by bouncer friends. And when he went to leave some of the guys who had been kicked out of the bar were following him in a car.

And he got pissed. They were signaling him to pull over and such.

But then he started thinking about knives and guns and all the rest of it. So he hit the freeway, waited for them to get bored and and stop following him, before finally going home.

Not exactly the bravest thing to do, but probably the smart thing. With ten years of perspective to look back on it, he still thinks it was the best decision.

And of course it is now a damn hilarious story. Especially the way he tells it...
 
Kyryllo said:
They made a technichal world championship last year I think, it was called Muyae championships and was hold in Korea.
Yeah, I think it was like a general rehearsal before the first official WTF world poomsae championship.
 
blanko said:
i admit that i made a mistake, there are strikes in Judo just not like in other stand up arts. There are however techniques that judo had that most if not all modern judokas don't know:

http://judoinfo.com/katagosh.htm
http://judoinfo.com/katakime.htm
you see kicks and punches involved don't you?
Those are defenses against punches and kicks. I'm quite sure that Judo doesn't TEACH punches and kicks.

And you're right, many Judo guys may not know defense against a kick or a pistol. But these are still legitimate Judo techniques. Many Judoka don't know any ground game, but that doesn't mean that there is no ground game in Judo either.
 
blanko said:
See, if i wasn't in korea and knew plent of TKD coaches or attend the univeristy where most of the national team comes from I would have to agree with you. As i said before, i guess that the TKD coaches i talked to in korea are not "reputable".
Dude, they are SPORT coaches. They teach Olympic Sparring. There are no elbows in Olympic Sparring (also known as TKD competition).

We know this.

What I'm telling you is that sparring is not all there is to TKD. You can't get a black belt with only sparring. You need to demonstrate breaking, forms, self-defense and mastery of the basics too. Or you don't get Kukkiwon certified. Get it?

You don't use elbows or knees in Olympic Sparring, which is what those top-level university coaches teach. But this is not kickboxing. There is plenty of stuff present in the art which isn't used in competition.
 
Hwang Jiang Li was a hand-to-hand Combat Instructor of the Tigers before he went into film. The Art he taught them? Tae Kwon Do. Now I cannot say I know if their fighting style has changed since then (this was in the 60's-70's I believe so I can say that yes it might have indeed changed), but if it did it changed for the worse I would say. Also Ka Sa Fa Wong was a reputable member of that division who learned his Tae Kwon Do directly from Li before he also went into Film. Both of them are regarded as two of the best Tae Kwon Do Artists to have been.

hmm.. Chang su Ok is the man who developed "Took kong mu sul" after the TKD based systed that the S. Korean army used was destroyed by a "Kyuck sul" practioner. ( on jan 21st 1968 N. Korea sent their special foces to assinate then dictator Park jung hee. After their plan was foiled only one was captured and he fought many of the top SF troops/coaches in hand to hand combat and destoryed them and their TKD based style with a more hand/cqbish style called "Kyuck sul". Mr Chang was later recruited to create a whole new system incorporating kyuck sul and that's what the ROK army hand to hand system is based on. Along with more grappling in recent years ala sambo)
 
blanko said:
hmm.. Chang su Ok is the man who developed "Took kong mu sul" after the TKD based systed that the S. Korean army used was destroyed by a "Kyuck sul" practioner. ( on jan 21st 1968 N. Korea sent their special foces to assinate then dictator Park jung hee. After their plan was foiled only one was captured and he fought many of the top SF troops/coaches in hand to hand combat and destoryed them and their TKD based style with a more hand/cqbish style called "Kyuck sul". Mr Chang was later recruited to create a whole new system incorporating kyuck sul and that's what the ROK army hand to hand system is based on. Along with more grappling in recent years ala sambo)
Kuk Sool? As in Kuk Sool Won? Do you know much about this art? I can tell you, but you won't like it.

Do you know that Kuk Sool is Korean for Gong Fu? The same characters, if I'm not mistaken.
 
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