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TKD in MMA?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by phenomfan1529, Aug 18, 2005.

  1. phenomfan1529

    phenomfan1529 Brown Belt

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    Alright guys heres the deal, last month I attended a local MMA show. One of the fights had a TKD guy fight a boxer. The TKD guy ko'ed the boxer with a kick to the body, just like the kick GSP hit Matt Hughes with (dont know names of kicks). After every match theres a post fight interview and the TKD guy said, "Who says TKD is useless? I'll fight any boxer and knock him out". With me being a boxer I was kinda pissed. Well anyway, my brother's friend is the guy who sets up the fights at the local MMA show that I went to and last week he asked me if I wanted to be the next guy he fights. I accepted.

    So my question is, is there any TKD guys in MMA? And what should I expect when I fight this guy. Its gonna be my first MMA fight.

    Thanks.
     
  2. zaner

    zaner Banned Banned

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    I think the Crow might be TKD and Stefan Bonnar as well as plenty others.
     
  3. zaner

    zaner Banned Banned

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    This guy has a good, and rare , instructor that has them sparring hard. I would expect fast, accurate, but not tremendously hard kicks of all kinds from a TKD guy that KOed someone with a kick. Try to lean in and counter when he throws kicks like Tim Silvia vs Ricco or Lutter vs Eastman. Right leg, right hand and vice versa. Or catch the kick and dirty box him. Or corner him and hook him to death. Just don't sit back in that kicking range. Be too far away or too close.
    Any grappling experience on your part?
     
  4. phenomfan1529

    phenomfan1529 Brown Belt

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    Yeah I did BJJ for 4 months and im doing judo right now. but not yet comfortable using judo yet but Im really confident in my striking though
     
  5. TheHighlander

    TheHighlander Green Belt

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    Unless he's very rare, a TKD guy will have little or no hands. Watch your entry, but crowd him and fight inside. Nobody can pull off a TKD kick when you're nose to nose.
     
  6. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    Dude, you saw the guy fight and you're asking us what to expect? You saw him fight.

    If this is for real and not yet another flame thread, you'll need to watch your range and not give him space.
     
  7. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Come in at an angle ... keep circling fast to stay away from his kicks ... when you do come in, blast him the #$(* out. And let us know how it goes.

    That spinning back kick is the one TKD kick that seems to be used more and more in MMA these days.
     
  8. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    Why did you get pissed off? Man! You've got to keep a level head about these things if you are going to be professional about it!!! Don't go out there trying to prove your style (boxing) is the best. Go out there for yourself and for the win. And if you win you better not come back here talking about how TKD sucks. We're trying to help you after all!

    Here is my advice (from a guy with tons of TKD experience). Try to stay inside his kicking range. If you start to back up, then you are asking for it! We love it when someone starts to back pedal a bit. It sets them up perfect for round kick to the head.

    Watch the spinning back kick. There is a kid (18 years old) who is going to nationals in WTF soon. He is friends with one of the kids at my dojang and he comes to spar with us every month or so (just to get a different look). Guess what the kid caught me with? Yep, spinning back kick. It is the kick many will resort to when they start getting pressure inside. And it hits like a mother. I weigh 200+ and the kid probably weighs 150. It didn't take me down, but I was still feeling it when I went to bed last night.

    And finally go for the takedown or at least try takedowns. When we know someone is trying to take us down we tend to get more cautious on our kicking.

    Good luck to you.
     
  9. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Untrue. In-fact, I've met many a TKD fighter who hope a guy has this mentality when they fight them, because they actually have an arsenal of close-range kicks, and various hand-techniques and throws ready for just such a situation. Now when I say this I'm talking about real and reputable TKD fighters, not a kid with a paid-for Brown Belt.

    Zankou hit the nail on the head. Circle. A lot of TKD artists are not used to circling because in kicking, even spinning kicks are usually aimed when the person is standing in-front of you. It's tough to properly aim your kicks when the person is motoring to their left or right. But be wary, if he's really that good then if he times you, you're as good as kicked. Plus this specific guy is smart, he kicks to the body. That tells you that he is aware you have to take away a Boxer's legs by going to the body. So just be certain this doesn't work on you. Strategic arm and elbow positioning will accomplish this. Also two things to add. Move in and out fast. Don't stay inside or outside, move through both, don't give him time to set for close OR long-range power kicks. Second, hit him UP AND DOWN. Jab high, hook to the body, hook to the head, straight to the body, hook to the head. Make him set his legs and move his arms.

    I also agree with EEG. You saw the guy fight. Right then and there you should have been studying him and learning all his little tricks and habits. Personally when I watch guys fight I rarely pay attention to their specific technique, because they can un-learn technique and learn new things. What I do watch is their little physiological and nervous habits that hint about how they move, where they don't like to be hit, what their reflexes are like. I hope you made ample mental notes.
     
  10. TheHighlander

    TheHighlander Green Belt

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    We must be using a different definition of "nose to nose". I'm talking full clinch range, although it's pretty darn hard to throw a kick even in elbow range. This pretty much applies to all styles of kicking. The biggest threat from a TKD guy that's proud of his TKD is going to be his kicks. I didn't say TKD is worthless, just that the majority of TKD guys can't really handle a tight inside fight. I'm not hating on TKD...I like the art, but inside is going to be the weakest part of 99% of a TKD stylist's game. Hand techniques will not be at a boxer's level, and throws not be at a grappler's level. Again, that's just the TKD...the guy could be well cross-trained, but indications are that he wants to use TKD to make an example.

    A TKD guy that's a threat probably has done a lot of work training against guys trying to close. He'll have kicks and setups. Circling and constant non-linear motion will certainly help while outside, but cross-range and out will generally be his power zone. A boxer that doesn't train heavily against kicks may have problems.
     
  11. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    A smart TKD guy in clinching range will know to push against you with his hands and kick at your legs and perhaps body. That could spell disaster for Boxers. If you look at video of TKD World-level events, they do A LOT of kicking well-within close-range of each other. So I wouldn't go as far as to say they're weak inside. They have kicks that are specifically designed to even hit you in the back of the head when you're in VERY close to them, and are skilled enough at throwing them in the blink-of-an-eye. I think what happens though is that TKD Artists traditionally fight each-other and thus, are more hesitant against other styles. So people tend to mistake that instinctive hesitance in fighting a new style for stylistic weakness. It's not that the tools are missing, it's that they think twice about using them. I've often said a TKD Artist with no such inhibitions is going to be one of the most dangerous guys you can fight. Lord knows I've been kicked in the face and gut by enough of them.

    However, the trick to beating them SOUNDLY inside is going to be to not lay off of them. Hitting up and down. And moving around and behind him. Staying off his eye-sight radar I think.
     
  12. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Btw, on circling generally -- I have noticed that a lot of TMA guys are baffled by circling and pivoting. They practice straight line fighting routines, and when you constantly circle, and engage/disengage at angles, they get really confused. Because you just are never standing there in front of them for their planned counters/strikes -- either out of range and circling fast or close in-range throwing a barrage at them. Boxing is really good training for this, you train to NEVER EVER EVER stand in front of your opponent.

    Any TMA guy that does a lot of live sparring will be much more used to this, but it's generally a big advantage.
     
  13. True2KungFu

    True2KungFu King Of No Pants

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    draw out his kicks and then come in with your punches , if youre going to pivot and bob and weave, do it while practically in the clinch. Like someone else said, mix it up as far as head and body shots are concerned and throw flurries.

    things to watch out for.

    1. Close range kicks
    A. jumping/ back kick - if you have a tendancy to plow straight forward youre going to eat on of these and they fucking hurt. So ALWAYS be circling and angling off

    B. Crescent Axe kick - tkd guys will throw the rear leg axe kick crescent style from the clinch, and it is the hardest thing to pick up except till its already in your jaw or collarbone so if youre clinching make sure your gaurd is real good.

    2 Footwork and feints. tkd guys will have footwork every bit as good as a boxer, but realise a first kick is usually a feint because tkdrs will set up stuff with their first kick like a jab.

    Use uppercuts because alot of tkd fighters dont tuck their chin properly.

    um thats all i can think of for now.
     
  14. TheHighlander

    TheHighlander Green Belt

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    I still think the close you are referring to is a little further out than what I am referring. I'm talking, right up body contact where you can only throw short hooks and uppercuts (for boxers) -- literally nose to nose. The concept of my original post was that the best place to be is up close and tight. I don't think that you can argue that it is better to be in tight than anywhere else except completely out of range (and you can't win a fight out there). Changing ranges is good, but that is the area that he will mostly likely have trained against, and is part of normal TKD sparring as well.

    Right, but strikes to the back of the head are illegal. A close hook kick (what you are referring to) is also hard to land if you stay relatively square (at that range). A lot of MMA fighters have TKD backgrounds. Where are all these kicks?

    TKD as a style does contain elements that can be used. A TKD guy that trains properly against other styles has a lot of potential. Same can be said about almost any TMA (although I personally really like the potential of TKD). TKD guys aren't known for having good hands...it's definitely not stylistic as punches/blocks are regular parts of the system...just they don't usually spar with them. But I would think that a TKD guy that wants to claim he's beating boxing with TKD is going to use things that look more like TKD than boxing.

    I appreciate your time and arguments...it's nice to see how somebody else analyzes things.
     
  15. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    I'd say there is some truth to the circling part (and this is speaking from a TMA guy). The reason for this is we practice 'line sparring'. Any school that is successful is lacking room. You're crowded into your particular line of sparring space.

    That being said, however, anyone competent soon learns to circle. They stay after class, compete in tournaments, etc, etc. Space no longer becomes a premium.

    Plus if you circle into our reverse leg you are just asking for trouble. If you are going to circle make sure to circle towards our lead leg. Of course then you have to watch for the spinning back kick. Plus we tend to switch legs. :D

    There is no magic formula. You're just going to have to do your best.
     
  16. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    This is true for many who train in the old-fashioned, stiff, stand there and exchange type of fighting and training. Modern TKD gyms are all about the angles. I know that there are many old-fashioned dojangs in the US who reject the 50 years of progress that's been going on in Korea, but if the guy has been doing proper sparring, he should always be circling and getting you in completely screwed up angles and setting himself up for followup kicks.

    But I agree with Kabuki, circling is essential. Not because they guy will not have seen or used it before (I venture that he has), but because circling and angle footwork is even more effective when applied against kicks. Just a slight sidestep at an angle can bypass most sidekicks or back kicks and give you a beautiful shot at the kidneys. This is exactly why it's used so much in modern TKD, so I'm surprised that so many of you find it uncharacteristic.

    Everything depends on the guy, what his personal style is, and so on, which is why you need to tell us more than that he landed a spinning back kick, cause every TKD guy can do that. Generally, you want to stay out of the range or clobber him, that's your best chance as a boxer against a kicker. Time his kicks and combinations and enter his range at the right moment -- this is essential. Try to avoid using angles instead of backing straight back because he'll chase you to kingdom come and force you against the ropes, which is a bad idea.
     
  17. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    To answer the question, there are no pure TKD fighters in MMA. There will probably never be any. But guys like Loiseau are TKD guys who cross-trained, but still kept a lot of TKD in their game.

    Chute Boxe (and all Brazilian Muay Thai practitioners) have a lot of TKD in their style. They use spinning and jumping kicks in sparring and you only need to watch guys like Azeredo or Shogun to see this. But this is TKD as an influence, and not the main style.

    Recently, we've been seeing a lot more TKD techniques in the ring (jumping kicks, jump-turn-back kicks, spinning hook kicks and the like) and I think that many of them will become a part of MMA in the future as more talented TKD guys cross over and train with MMA as a priority.

    Until now, there has never been a high-level TKD guy in either K1 or MMA.
     
  18. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    I agree with your statment of cross training. Are you sure about the above. I'd say crocop, who supposedly started in TKD from what I hear on this board, is a good example of someone who had a good foundation provided to him by TKD and added on to it.

    And, to be honest, I don't think there are too many TKD dojangs where circling and odd angles are not the norm. The whole concept of spinning, which every TKD school loves to do, pretty much ensures that TKDist are anything but stiff and rigid.

    I think the size of the dojang has a lot to do with it as well. When I was younger I used to go around and spar with other schools for fun and cross training (no malice or trying to prove 'my style was best'. Just for the fun of training). I'll never forget one school that was designed like a long alley. This long space, but very narrow.

    I've always been good at circling and using my leg length (at 6 feet it is an advantage I have). But those guys were fricken awesome at inside fighting and kicking at close range. I literally had my back to the wall in almost every match I was involved in. They didn't circle much, but they certainly knew fast and furious!! And it worked for them. While it probably didn't help them at tournaments, I'd have hated to tangle with one of those guys in the tight confines of a bar!

    :D
     
  19. I-Shoji

    I-Shoji Green Belt

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    A lot of TKD techniques lack power. I'd say a solid MT approach of attacking his legs with thai kicks and getting him flustered in the clinch would be the way to go. His nutty kicks might be difficult to penetrate using only boxing however. you'd pretty much have to overwhelm and bum-rush him from the get go, and if you don't finish you will blow your wad.

    I'd say use elbows and shin to block his kicks and inflict pain. Bringing an elbow down hard on a foot or shin would probably really 'step on his sword'.

    "Stepping on the oponents sword" is a principle from Musashi's Book of Five Rings. Basically you punish him for throwing his best technique and make him fearfull of using it. Move in when he chambers his leg for a sidekick or the TKD style roundhouse, and keep him off balance. Putting a foot firmly on his knee when he brings it up to throw a kick and pushing it down or push him off balance is something I always did sparring when I took TKD and karate. Nothing frustrates a good TKD style kicker more then if you have the reflexes to jam his kicks this way and use it to set up your counters.

    Since this is a MMA fight it's really pretty simple. get in and clinch (use the ole Randy-style looping overhand to the double-leg) and get him on the ground. Keep a good base and rain down those hands.
     
  20. phenomfan1529

    phenomfan1529 Brown Belt

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    Yeah I saw the guy fight but it only lasted less than 1:30 in the 1st round
     

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