The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[TheMaster]

What?????? Now I would really like to know your boxing history or were you have your infos from. There is not one "BOXING". Different styles have different advantages but in general boxing has a heavy history with wrestling. "Clinching" is part of boxing. Until the 40s at least wrestling often was an essential part of boxing training. Boxing was very effective at close range because of that. And everything was "pressure tested". Hand trapping...etc are boxing skills.

Someone like Jack Dempsey really was a killer in every aspect of hand to hand fighting because of that.

Even today quite some boxing coaches incorporate heavy clinch fighting especially if its at pro level. This is very effective and they will shut your offense down completely if you dont know how to counter.

Dont talk down on something you have no knowledge about.

I'm actually a big fan of Dempsey, and good WC can resemble some of these old timers with their in-fighting approach.

But let's not pretend in any way that's representative of what modern boxing is or became. Your referencing the 1920's and 40's.

What I see is boxers having to heavily modify thier art and combine with other things to make it work in MMA.
But what surprised me is seeimg a world champ Malinaggi get busted up and look lost on the inside against an MMA journeyman in a straight fist fight. If that's not a damning indictment of what modern boxing became as regards close range fighting then what is? And we have seen similar in other BK fights many former pro boxers struggle on the inside against low tier strikers.

So boxers who criticizing Wing Chun should know they stand on shakier ground than they think. As I mentioned, we finally have real fight training in WC and the results are very encouraging . Let's see how the Wing Chun vs boxing and other striking arts plays out in MMA in the years ahead as we start to get a bit onto a more even playing field with regards live training.

 

[listrahtes]

But let's not pretend in any way that's representative of what modern boxing is or became. Your referencing the 1920's and 40's.

To this day it gets coached. Duran was 80s and he was the master of infighting. Floyd just recently. It all depends on the gym and the boxer.

 

[TheMaster]

 

[Woldog]

I'm actually a big fan of Dempsey, and good WC can resemble some of these old timers with their in-fighting approach.

But let's not pretend in any way that's representative of what modern boxing is or became. Your referencing the 1920's and 40's.

What I see is boxers having to heavily modify thier art and combine with other things to make it work in MMA.
But what surprised me is seeimg a world champ Malinaggi get busted up and look lost on the inside against an MMA journeyman in a straight fist fight. If that's not a damning indictment of what modern boxing became as regards close range fighting then what is? And we have seen similar in other BK fights many former pro boxers struggle on the inside against low tier strikers.

Most of them are retired boxers who come back for a paycheck. Paulie had feather fists in boxing he was always going to have feather fists in BKB and anyone who could pressure him wins. Dude was a shit champ who was a skilled technician but that was it.
Use a different example of boxers getting smashed in BK.

 

[rmongler]

I wonder who Justin Gaethje's wing chun sifu was, to be able to handle Ferguson so decisively on the inside.

 

[DoctorTaco]

The secret to applying WC to combat sports is to apply it to jiu jitsu and ground n pound.

 

[ocean size]

Totally off...
It's not a base art in MMA because its not practiced as a combat sport. Simple and obvious.

If effort is made to adapt it to mma or full contact fighting it easily functions as a base art.

If my grandma had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

For the record, complete Wing Chun is not designed for sports and contains many elements not compatible with a sporting context. The vast majority who do it do not train with this in mind and cross training and full sparring is not common.
However, this is not an excuse as many in that community like to hold to......

It has been a long road, but we are seeing gradually more WC guys compete. It can be adapted and used as a base standup style in mma or BKFC type fights.
We have seen aspects of it being used as documented by Tony Fergusson and Anderson Silva (esp vs Bisping), and of course the famous WC 'oblique kick'. Fergusson in particular with his close range telephone box style is very Wing Chun.

So let us analayze using collective standup knowledge and opinions on the strengths/weaknesses of Wing Chun as a standup base and how it can be trained or incorporate other elements to increase combat effectiveness in this environment.

- Note if u want to just trash on WC, or have no experience or knowledge of it and are just negatively opinionated, go now and save the trouble of posting here.
If on the other hand u have a legit opinion and know enough about standup arts or WC to contribute to discussion, please do so.

A rare example:

Wing Chun vs Lethwei fighter



Rules limit it, but I would love to see more WC guys training and conditioning themselves to compete in Lethwei type bouts, the art can definitely grow in some areas through this type of combat testing.

trapping works nothing elaborate just use the lead hand to swat away a guard and follow up with a haymaker like fedor

 

[TheMaster]

I wonder who Justin Gaethje's wing chun sifu was, to be able to handle Ferguson so decisively on the inside.

Except he kept him on the outside at boxing range and beat him there.
If it went to inside close range Ferg would've done alot better and sliced him up but he couldn't get it there.

Another of the well known differences for sport fighting where you have a big ring/cage to back up continuously and keep range compared to real life where you will be coming forward or may be in a closer environment.

 

[ocean size]

Except he kept him on the outside at boxing range and beat him there.
If it went to inside close range Ferg would've done alot better and sliced him up but he couldn't get it there.

Another of the well known differences for sport fighting where you have a big ring/cage to back up continuously and keep range compared to real life where you will be coming forward or may be in a closer environment.

Idk sounds like all the more distance to trap incoming punches.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Except he kept him on the outside at boxing range and beat him there.
If it went to inside close range Ferg would've done alot better and sliced him up but he couldn't get it there.

Another of the well known differences for sport fighting where you have a big ring/cage to back up continuously and keep range compared to real life where you will be coming forward or may be in a closer environment.

if you think that ring or cage is but you’ve clearly never been inside one with another grown man intent on hurting you.

 

[shunyata]

The more you pressure test kung fu styles, the more they ultimately turn into sanda. The over complicated demonstration moves don't work, and the logical principles of wing chun like hand trapping and attacking the centreline, when performed at their most efficient are the same techniques you see in boxing and Muay Thai.

The more you pressure test a style like kung fu and iron out the fluff and the flash, the more it loses it's visual identity as a martial art, and the more it starts to resemble what we know is tried, trie and works.

I remember reading an article in Black Belt magazine back in the 90s, with a Gongfu master who essentially said the exact same thing.

To paraphrase from memory, he flat out said Gongfu is not for sport fighting, when you try to adapt it to kickboxing rules, eventually it just starts to look more and more and more like kickboxing and somewhere along the way it stops being Gongfu.

 

[User89]

I'm actually a big fan of Dempsey, and good WC can resemble some of these old timers with their in-fighting approach.

But let's not pretend in any way that's representative of what modern boxing is or became. Your referencing the 1920's and 40's.

What I see is boxers having to heavily modify thier art and combine with other things to make it work in MMA.
But what surprised me is seeimg a world champ Malinaggi get busted up and look lost on the inside against an MMA journeyman in a straight fist fight. If that's not a damning indictment of what modern boxing became as regards close range fighting then what is? And we have seen similar in other BK fights many former pro boxers struggle on the inside against low tier strikers.

So boxers who criticizing Wing Chun should know they stand on shakier ground than they think. As I mentioned, we finally have real fight training in WC and the results are very encouraging . Let's see how the Wing Chun vs boxing and other striking arts plays out in MMA in the years ahead as we start to get a bit onto a more even playing field with regards live training.

Paulie thought he won that fight. All it proves is that you need to learn the scoring system before you enter a new sport. Cuts and blood also put a monkey wretch into the mix.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I remember reading an article in Black Belt magazine back in the 90s, with a Gongfu master who essentially said the exact same thing.

To paraphrase from memory, he flat out said Gongfu is not for sport fighting, when you try to adapt it to kickboxing rules, eventually it just starts to look more and more and more like kickboxing and somewhere along the way it stops being Gongfu.

Yeah it basically comes down to any time you do a chi-sau sorta thing and start slapping and parrying, you're better off doing a single parry and following up immediately with a strike.

 

[User89]

The more you pressure test kung fu styles, the more they ultimately turn into sanda. The over complicated demonstration moves don't work, and the logical principles of wing chun like hand trapping and attacking the centreline, when performed at their most efficient are the same techniques you see in boxing and Muay Thai.

The more you pressure test a style like kung fu and iron out the fluff and the flash, the more it loses it's visual identity as a martial art, and the more it starts to resemble what we know is tried, trie and works.

Which is the same for Karate. When pressure tested turns into American Kickboxing, and Aikido turns into Judo.

In fact, this is why Karate organizations do not want continuous free sparring with gloves, because it will turn into kickboxing.

 

[TheMaster]

Yeah it basically comes down to any time you do a chi-sau sorta thing and start slapping and parrying, you're better off doing a single parry and following up immediately with a strike.

Yes, not wrong at all. Parrying and counter striking at close range is a large part of what WC is about.
Add the golves, rules set and limitations you see what you see in MMA.

 

[TheMaster]

I remember reading an article in Black Belt magazine back in the 90s, with a Gongfu master who essentially said the exact same thing.

To paraphrase from memory, he flat out said Gongfu is not for sport fighting, when you try to adapt it to kickboxing rules, eventually it just starts to look more and more and more like kickboxing and somewhere along the way it stops being Gongfu.

Yes...but that does not mean that sport fighting is exactly the same.

I know it will get flamed, but didn't cormier get blinded in one eye with an accidental eye poke?

What about those 'deadly' throat strikes?
Guess what, getting chopped at high speed in the neck/throat is not good for your health AT ALL.
That's why we don't do it in sport or even real fighting unless there is maybe a weapon involved, we just simulate it in chi sau

Wing Chun is maybe the last martial arts with the 'mystique' left.
Yes you need to cross train submission grappling and takedown defence to be well rounded like any striking style. And you need to adapt it to mma .

But to counter the response posts by bobs-
Anytime you do real no rules barehand fighting it starts to look less like MMA and more like BKFC or Wing Chun, depending how far people are willing to go and if there are rules.

Going to ground is not an option unless you want a bystander to stomp your head.
In fact any grappling is dangerous, if the other guy is carrying something or deranged enough to use dirty tactics at close range.

End it fast, and standing.
Get up if it goes to the ground, whether on top or bottom.
Learn grappling to learn to keep it standing and to get up, and add select high percentage submissions that can be done standing if possible.

Changing any of these conditions changes things big time

I know this to be true.
I cross trained Judo and grappling for years, and it is still true.

I don't care if people are freaked out that there is some truth to the 'deadly martial arts' image (not just with WC but with aspects of many Asian arts) that hasn't been taken into the " 'murican pro fight league y'all it's like football but with punches" mentality.

Or likewise the "we do jiu'jitsu on the beach of rio, if it don't work on the beach it's not real" mentality.

Many of the efective arts like BJJ and modern kickboxing came from Asian arts remember.

And in Judo, they never said dangerous strikes don't work, they just said we won't train with them since you can get combat proficient better without these stikes.
So they put them in Kata.

I realized this long ago, so I include both for a self defence angle not sport fighting since I don't care to compete and don't want cte so it will still work when I am old.

And it will.

 

[Woldog]

Yes...but that does not mean that sport fighting is exactly the same.

I know it will get flamed, but didn't cormier get blinded in one eye with an accidental eye poke?

What about those 'deadly' throat strikes?
Guess what, getting chopped at high speed in the neck/throat is not good for your health AT ALL.
That's why we don't do it in sport or even real fighting unless there is maybe a weapon involved, we just simulate it in chi sau

Wing Chun is maybe the last martial arts with the 'mystique' left.
Yes you need to cross train submission grappling and takedown defence to be well rounded like any striking style. And you need to adapt it to mma .

But to counter the response posts by bobs-
Anytime you do real no rules barehand fighting it starts to look less like MMA and more like BKFC or Wing Chun, depending how far people are willing to go and if there are rules.

Going to ground is not an option unless you want a bystander to stomp your head.
In fact any grappling is dangerous, if the other guy is carrying something or deranged enough to use dirty tactics at close range.

End it fast, and standing.
Get up if it goes to the ground, whether on top or bottom.
Learn grappling to learn to keep it standing and to get up, and add select high percentage submissions that can be done standing if possible.

Changing any of these conditions changes things big time

I know this to be true.
I cross trained Judo and grappling for years, and it is still true.

I don't care if people are freaked out that there is some truth to the 'deadly martial arts' image (not just with WC but with aspects of many Asian arts) that hasn't been taken into the " 'murican pro fight league y'all it's like football but with punches" mentality.

Or likewise the "we do jiu'jitsu on the beach of rio, if it don't work on the beach it's not real" mentality.

Many of the efective arts like BJJ and modern kickboxing came from Asian arts remember.

And in Judo, they never said dangerous strikes don't work, they just said we won't train with them since you can get combat proficient better without these stikes.
So they put them in Kata.

I realized this long ago, so I include both for a self defence angle not sport fighting since I don't care to compete and don't want cte so it will still work when I am old.

And it will.

How many times a week do you watch Ip Man?

 

[TheMaster]

How many times a week do you watch Ip Man?

None.

Also Jigoro Kano doesn't appreciate the Ip Man movie jibe about his katas.

Now here's something for you to study, then you can get back to me.

https://hubpages.com/politics/Science-Art-or-Brutality-What-Is-The-American-Fighting-Form

 

[Woldog]

None.

Also Jigoro Kano doesn't appreciate the Ip Man jibe about his katas.

Now here's something for you to study, then you can get back to me.

https://hubpages.com/politics/Science-Art-or-Brutality-What-Is-The-American-Fighting-Form

Why would I study that and get back to you with what? I fought for 18 years, I'm not American I'm not sure what this is supposed to teach me lol.