Law THE POLICE SHOOTING/USE OF FORCE MEGATHREAD: discussions to determine if justified or not

[Poon Goon]

@Poon Goon @deadshot138 @nhbbear

Thoughts?

You kept referring to Hirales as "shithead" and said he wanted to get a notch on his belt for shooting the brick thrower. Seems like a good dude based on the video you posted though.

 

[Joshuaace]

You kept referring to Hirales as "shithead" and said he wanted to get a notch on his belt for shooting the brick thrower. Seems like a good dude based on the video you posted though.

But Singh looks like a better dude. One who follows policy, and has great reverance for human life. Mr. Murphy is alive because of his actions.

 

[Joshuaace]

Now you have me thinking you've been intentionally obtuse. It is in fact Hirales that shot Vargas X2, and Singh is Ofc #2, "it's just a beer bro." When I said the subject did not interest me, that was a poor choice of words. What I should have said was that I'm in a discussion group discussing the case at a higher level than; "Hurr, who cares about policy""Durr, you can kill someone over a dog in Florida."

So, to me, Hirales seems like the kind of guy to say "tell them to hurry up, there's one inside, it's full of smoke, I can't go in." Then only latch on to Singh's belt to avoid looking like a total bitch.

Because Singh shows up, penetrates farther through the front than Hirales did, and still leads the way through an alternate entrance, locates Murphy, AND carries him out. Poor Singh had to frame it like 'We are Heroes together, I knew my Sr. Officer would be right behind me......even though he was here first.'

You get how dept bureaucracy works?

 

[Poon Goon]

When I said the subject did not interest me, that was a poor choice of words. What I should have said was that I'm in a discussion group discussing the case at a higher level than; "Hurr, who cares about policy""Durr, you can kill someone over a dog in Florida."

This is very impressive

So, to me, Hirales seems like the kind of guy to say "tell them to hurry up, there's one inside, it's full of smoke, I can't go in." Then only latch on to Singh's belt to avoid looking like a total bitch.

Because Singh shows up, penetrates farther through the front than Hirales did, and still leads the way through an alternate entrance, locates Murphy, AND carries him out. Poor Singh had to frame it like 'We are Heroes together, I knew my Sr. Officer would be right behind me......even though he was here first.'

You get how dept bureaucracy works?

If they were firemen I might be inclined to judge them based on how they reacted to a fire call, but they're not. Also, did you ever admit that Officer 2 from the original video did indeed have his gun drawn?

 

[oldshadow]

Seems like it was allowed in Florida.



Here's another one, but this guy had a gun so obviously that's a little different

Good, you use deadly force on the dog they should dump a mag or two into you.

 

[Joshuaace]

This is very impressive


If they were firemen I might be inclined to judge them based on how they reacted to a fire call, but they're not. Also, did you ever admit that Officer 2 from the original video did indeed have his gun drawn?

Officer #2 is Singh. Showing what genuine duty of service looks like. I still don't think he has his gun drawn, and he does have a duty to report excessive force if he sees it, and he did. Hilares fate rests largely in his hands.



Cal. Gov. Code § 7286 (“
(b) Each law enforcement agency shall, by no later than January 1, 2021, maintain a policy that provides a minimum standard on the use of force. Each agency's policy shall include all of the following:

(1) A requirement that officers utilize deescalation techniques, crisis intervention tactics, and other alternatives to force when feasible.
Singh attempted de-escalation. Hirales was successful at escalation.

(2) A requirement that an officer may only use a level of force that they reasonably believe is proportional to the seriousness of the suspected offense or the reasonably perceived level of actual or threatened resistance.
Singh and Hirales obviously perceived the threat Vargas represented differently, and had vastly different strategies about reaching a resolution.


(3) A requirement that officers immediately report potential excessive force to a superior officer when present and observing another officer using force that the officer believes to be beyond that which is necessary, as determined by an objectively reasonable officer under the circumstances based upon the totality of information actually known to the officer.
Singh is that objectively reasonable officer, with practically identical information. He did not shoot Vargas, nor did he enter a potentially unstable situation with Vargas that could potentially neccessitate the use of deadly force, like Hilares did.

 

[Poon Goon]

Singh attempted de-escalation. Hirales was successful at escalation.

Correct about Singh, but Vargas did the escalating when he threw the brick. You can't commit a crime, carry a dangerous weapon, ignore orders to drop the weapon, and then say police escalated by having their guns drawn.

Singh and Hirales obviously perceived the threat Vargas represented differently, and had vastly different strategies about reaching a resolution.

They both viewed Vargas as enough of a threat to have their guns drawn.

Singh is that objectively reasonable officer, with practically identical information. He did not shoot Vargas, nor did he enter a potentially unstable situation with Vargas that could potentially neccessitate the use of deadly force, like Hilares did.

Before you were shitting on both of them for leaving cover, but now you feel that Singh is the shining example of a wonderful cop. I've said several times that if another cop was there instead of Hirales then the guy might not have gotten shot. However, I still doubt that Hilares gets charged over this.

 

[Joshuaace]

Correct about Singh, but Vargas did the escalating when he threw the brick. You can't commit a crime, carry a dangerous weapon, ignore orders to drop the weapon, and then say police escalated by having their guns drawn.

Watch the video again. Vargas is quartering away from Hirales with his eyes diverted at the ground when shithead draws his weapon. As Vargas turns to face, they simultaneously lower their weapons. Shithead then re-escalates by again pointing the gun at Vargas aggressively.

They both viewed Vargas as enough of a threat to have their guns drawn.

Singh's bodycam or car cam would show that definitively now wouldn't it? Seems I recall labeling this a shit level critcal incident briefing. Even if he did have his gun drawn, and I don't think he did, at no point did he see the threat to Hirales so great that he discharged his weapon to defend his comrade.

Before you were shitting on both of them for leaving cover, but now you feel that Singh is the shining example of a wonderful cop. I've said several times that if another cop was there instead of Hirales then the guy might not have gotten shot. However, I still doubt that Hilares gets charged over this.

Don't go twisting shit. I said #1 was a shithead, and the press release is shit level. I said #2, #3, and #4 were undetermined. For all we know, #4 actually was a Dog. I've already held your hand and walked you through their de-escalation policy.

I never said Hirales WOULD face charges, only that he SHOULD face charges imo. His fate is in Singh's hands though. He is the reasonable officer that did not shoot Vargas. Who followed his policy and did not enter a potentially unstable situation.

 

[Poon Goon]

Don't go twisting shit. I said #1 was a shithead, and the press release is shit level. I said #2, #3, and #4 were undetermined. For all we know, #4 actually was a Dog.

This is what you said. You were clearly shitting on both of them and you said that both viewed the threat similarly.

You do both realize that at least 2 leo's abandoned cover to engage. That itself indicates the level of threat they perceived the brick to be when held at waist level.

 

[Joshuaace]

This is what you said. You were clearly shitting on both of them and you said that both viewed the threat similarly.

That's a statement of fact. This was my opinion from the start.

Officer #2 is not the one who escalated a public intoxication call in to a fatal shooting in a residential neighborhood.

Officer #1 is for sure a shithead. #2, #3, and #4 are yet to be determined.

As I looked closer, the picture became clearer. But you twist shit however you need it to be.

 

[Joshuaace]

What did the cops do wrong today? or here?

 

[Poon Goon]

What did the cops do wrong today? or here?

I saw that one earlier. Seemed okay to me.

 

[Poon Goon]

Glad we agreed @Joshuaace

 

[Joshuaace]

Glad we agreed @Joshuaace

I'm still undecided....on the first shot. The 3 shots at the back of the guy retreating, clearly aren't self protective though.

 

[Poon Goon]

I'm still undecided....on the first shot. The 3 shots at the back of the guy retreating, clearly aren't self protective though.

There is the slightest of pauses between the first and subsequent shots, but it seems pretty instantaneous to me. I just wonder if there was a dead lady inside like the 911 callers reported.

 

[Joshuaace]

I just wonder if there was a dead lady inside like the 911 callers reported.

The screaming woman out front was Briggs' victim.

 

[Poon Goon]

The screaming woman out front was Briggs' victim.

Did you read that or assume it? News story from two days ago says this:

Police did not release any information about the victim(s) inside the house.

Police shoot, kill Reno man after body camera footage shows suspect attack officer, reach for gun

***WARNING: Details and pictures in this story may be graphic. Read and watch at your own discretion.***Newly released body camera footage shows the tense momen

mynews4.com

 

[Staph infection]

I'm still undecided....on the first shot. The 3 shots at the back of the guy retreating, clearly aren't self protective though.

The shots were fired off in quick succession, it is not like he paused and then fired more shots. The perpetrator still posed a threat, he was in close proximity to the officer and could have turned and lunge at him again. He already attacked the officer once what was to say he wouldn't do it again.

 

[Joshuaace]

Did you read that or assume it? News story from two days ago says this:

Police did not release any information about the victim(s) inside the house.

Police shoot, kill Reno man after body camera footage shows suspect attack officer, reach for gun

***WARNING: Details and pictures in this story may be graphic. Read and watch at your own discretion.***Newly released body camera footage shows the tense momen

mynews4.com

This is the PD briefing. 5:43 they make a point about the woman with the torn joggers and hair extensions being the victim. If there was another victim, for sure this brief would have indicated that.

 

[Joshuaace]

it is not like he paused and then fired more shots.

He literally had to re-aim after the first shot. All but the first shot were fired at the back of an unarmed man actively retreating.