The Miguel Torres - Demetrious Johnson Robbery

Fight Metric's data is flawed. What they call a 'pass' isn't what BJJ / SG competitions call a pass.

They include a transition from guard to half guard as a 'pass' because they believe moving into half guard is a more dominant position for the guy on top when it comes to MMA.

In my piece on Bloody Elbow I said their scoring of passes didn't add up, and that's the reason why.
 
At the end of rnd 3 is was definitely a tossup. No robbery at all, just a great fight.

Torres was slick, but ultimately not effective enough. And I know this is a grappling section, but BJJ minded guys should quit getting upset because the BJJ guy lost.

MMA is not BJJ. To most of the world, being on your back is NOT an advantage. I don't care about the BJJ heirarchy of positions - If the judges want you to be on TOP, then you best get yourself on top. Trying to win an MMA fight from the guard is not the best idea, unless you can finish it.

This exact same discussion happens every effing time there is a fight. We know what the expectations are..now meet them
 
Yes, I train with Miguel. Yes, I train grappling primarily.

I'm upset because:

I prefer the pride system of judging the entire fight and not round by round.

I felt like Miguel was trying to finish the fight and DJ wasn't.
 
It was a lot closer then people are making it seem like, MM was passing guard and trying to advance position and torres would regain his guard in most cases. I had Miguel winning rounds 1 and 3 but three was very close and I could see how MM could have taken that round. Great fight regardless.
 
I actually scored it for Mighty Mouse. I had Round 1 as definitely Torres and Round 2 as definitely Mighty Mouse. I actually gave Round 3 for Mighty Mouse as well. Torres had it in the bag if he would have done something after the sweep and mount. Mighty Mouse really seemed to drive the fight home in the closing seconds.

To me, it was definitely a close fight and calling it a robbery is just crazy. cjlewis01's response is spot on IMO.
 
Bryk said:
Am I the only pure bjj guy that thinks torres didn't get robbed?

If he could maintain position of his sweeps, then I say he wins.

He got reversed just as many times as he swept.

As a bjj guy, I say position>submission and he did a poor job of maintaining any dominant position.
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I agree with you. Torres lost because he couldn't control where the fight went. Don't get me wrong, Torres' mma guard is probably one of, if not, the best guards in MMA but almost submissions and uncontrolled sweeps won't count for much. DJ took him down at will. Most of the time when Torres reversed him DJ stood up and took him back down. Torres' pass and one sweep to mount he did no damage. DJ didn't do a ton of damage but he controlled where the fight went all times. It wasn't a spectacular win but he out pointed Torres.
 
YeahBee said:
Rogan did praise Torres, kept talking about young fighters could learn

this was the exception to my rule about top wins

I still don't think you should win because of "activity" but Torres won the standup convincingly, spent time and scored ontop more then DJ did even if he may have spent less time on top

great sweeps and an active guard,

I mean people bitch about Fitch winning from top but he actually punches (but you may call it weak but strikes nonetheless) DJ didn't throw any punches and got punched a bunch
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You are kidding me, right? How did Torres clearly win the standup?
 
Auspex said:
At the end of rnd 3 is was definitely a tossup. No robbery at all, just a great fight.

Torres was slick, but ultimately not effective enough. And I know this is a grappling section, but BJJ minded guys should quit getting upset because the BJJ guy lost.

MMA is not BJJ. To most of the world, being on your back is NOT an advantage. I don't care about the BJJ heirarchy of positions - If the judges want you to be on TOP, then you best get yourself on top. Trying to win an MMA fight from the guard is not the best idea, unless you can finish it.

This exact same discussion happens every effing time there is a fight. We know what the expectations are..now meet them
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Well, judo biased anyone?

Problem is, it shouldnt be what the judges want, it should be what the rules say, and the judges should follow those rules in order to give the points... but, since 99% of the judges dont know the difference between and arm bar an triangle... we are fucked. But whats even WORST, ppl with knowlege are actually accepting that we have to deal with this morons and not complaining anymore...

Is not a good idea to fight from your guard, even if you are hitting the other guy till his face falls off? I will agree that pulling guard isnt the best idea.. but in this case, Miguel was takend donw, but also he was confrotably connecting elbows strikes, while DJ did nothing, absolutely nothing on the ground... I dont see what the problem is, if you are hitting the other dude, it shouldnt matter where you are hittimg him from... you have better chances of causing more damage from top of course, but if you cant fight from the top, I dont see anything wrong winning the fight from the bottom, ploblem is, right now, literally, YOU CANT, no matter what you do, unless you sub the guy, there is zero chances you are getting the decision, and that is not what the rules state about judging fights.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
Well, judo biased anyone?

Problem is, it shouldnt be what the judges want, it should be what the rules say, and the judges should follow those rules in order to give the points... but, since 99% of the judges dont know the difference between and arm bar an triangle... we are fucked. But whats even WORST, ppl with knowlege are actually accepting that we have to deal with this morons and not complaining anymore...

Is not a good idea to fight from your guard, even if you are hitting the other guy till his face falls off? I will agree that pulling guard isnt the best idea.. but in this case, Miguel was takend donw, but also he was confrotably connecting elbows strikes, while DJ did nothing, absolutely nothing on the ground... I dont see what the problem is, if you are hitting the other dude, it shouldnt matter where you are hittimg him from... you have better chances of causing more damage from top of course, but if you cant fight from the top, I dont see anything wrong winning the fight from the bottom, ploblem is, right now, literally, YOU CANT, no matter what you do, unless you sub the guy, there is zero chances you are getting the decision, and that is not what the rules state about judging fights.
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What do you think about this guys post? http://www.sherdog.net/forums/54595983-post74.html I think he explained it pretty well. I think Round 3 was definitely stolen by Johnson by the little amount of standup in there.
 
Oblivian said:
What do you think about this guys post? http://www.sherdog.net/forums/54595983-post74.html I think he explained it pretty well. I think Round 3 was definitely stolen by Johnson by the little amount of standup in there.
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torres got a sweep and proceed to mount him. If miguel for some reason wanted to win the fight, he could have stalled the fuck out of him from the mount, yet he tried to improve his position, and lost the mount (mm did a nice escape too though)
 
This is the reason why japanese MMA > US MMA.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
torres got a sweep and proceed to mount him. If miguel for some reason wanted to win the fight, he could have stalled the fuck out of him from the mount, yet he tried to improve his position, and lost the mount (mm did a nice escape too though)
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So do you actually have more of an issue with the judging criteria from the post that I gave you or do you think the judges didn't score correctly based on that criteria?
 
Oblivian said:
So do you actually have more of an issue with the judging criteria from the post that I gave you or do you think the judges didn't score correctly based on that criteria?
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judges my friend.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
judges my friend.
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Then I guess I'm at a loss for your response to his post. You didn't really counter what he said. Based on the criteria and his analysis, what do you see wrong with it? Personally, I think his post was pretty spot on but I think Mighty Mouse stole the last round at the end. Round 3 was very close though. I actually think the judges got it right in this fight based on the criteria.

The bottom line is that there will always be conflict. People say you should get fighters to be judges, yet I guarantee you some fighters viewed this fight in Mighty Mouse's favor. Not surprisingly, I'm betting most of the wrestlers would side with MM and most BJJ guys with Torres.

No matter how you slice it, it was a close fight. I haven't seen anyone really argue why it wasn't close without using hyperbole.
 
Oblivian said:
Then I guess I'm at a loss for your response to his post. You didn't really counter what he said. Based on the criteria and his analysis, what do you see wrong with it? Personally, I think his post was pretty spot on but I think Mighty Mouse stole the last round at the end. Round 3 was very close though. I actually think the judges got it right in this fight based on the criteria.

The bottom line is that there will always be conflict. People say you should get fighters to be judges, yet I guarantee you some fighters viewed this fight in Mighty Mouse's favor. Not surprisingly, I'm betting most of the wrestlers would side with MM and most BJJ guys with Torres.

No matter how you slice it, it was a close fight. I haven't seen anyone really argue why it wasn't close without using hyperbole.
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youre assuming wrong, not every wrestler seemed the fight to mm, and every single mma site, as well as most of the polls did give the fight to Torres. You are not alone, but the vast moyority of the mma fans and analyst did give the fight to Torres.

MMA rather have a MMA biased fighter to judge a fight than someone that cannot see the difference between a arm bar and an triangle.
 
I think it's rare that a fighter can actually win a fight when he's taken down at will and spends a good deal of the fight on bottom.

This is one of those times where the bottom fighter was the rightful winner. Johnson was on the defensive for most of the fight, and executed few successful offensive techniques (strikes or otherwise) once getting the takedown.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
youre assuming wrong, not every wrestler seemed the fight to mm, and every single mma site, as well as most of the polls did give the fight to Torres. You are not alone, but the vast moyority of the mma fans and analyst did give the fight to Torres.

MMA rather have a MMA biased fighter to judge a fight than someone that cannot see the difference between a arm bar and an triangle.
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I broke it down by grappling only rules in a bunch of other threads. MM won easily by IBJJF and ADCC. The stand up was basically non existent.

More importantly just beacuse all of these guys gave the fight to torres does not make it right. I posted the rules, i explained why I felt it was so close that either decision could be argued. The first us definitely Torres, but how in the hell can we give Torres the second(as all the sherdog pbp guys did. He had 0 actual sweeps. He swept to a standup then got taken down. MM passed his guard to side control?

The third is the question. It was clearly very close, but MM had three TDs, was swept to mount, but got passed on top once. Either way you score it, its close. Personally I think 10-10 is the fairest. Although watching it for the first time the last TD kinda gave MM the edge, after the rewatch I felt 10-10 was the best score.
SuperSuperRambo said:
I think it's rare that a fighter can actually win a fight when he's taken down at will and spends a good deal of the fight on bottom.

This is one of those times where the bottom fighter was the rightful winner. Johnson was on the defensive for most of the fight, and executed few successful offensive techniques (strikes or otherwise) once getting the takedown.
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I disagree, he gave up positions, and finishing fights in the second and third are incredibly difficult. The sweat makes subs almost nonexistent, and although he had him on the defensive he did give up postions in the 2nd and 3rd.

For the record, MMA judging the way it is actually gives points for having an active guard. That seems awfully fair when I have never seen that in a BJJ comp. How much better can it get, give more emphasis to the guard so guys are throwing up sloppy attempts to look active becasue its weighted more than before?

Close fight, good fight, 29-28 either guy is acceptable, i prefer 29-29 draw. NO way is it 30-27 imo.
 
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