The Miguel Torres - Demetrious Johnson Robbery

UrbanSavage said:
Anyone just catch this fight on the UFC 130 prelims? Seriously, what do you have to do to make it clear to the judges that you're the offensive fighter despite being on your back? Even though Torres was able to sweep Mighty Mouse in rounds 1 and 3 and was constantly going for the finish, he still loses 29-28? At worst, I saw this fight as 30-28 in favor of Torres with the 2nd round being 10-10 (and even that's a stretch, IMO).

Anyway, if it hadn't already been established that the guard is all but dead in MMA, it seems pretty clear now. If you don't finish the fight, you're going to lose even if your opponent wasn't able to do any damage and mounted virtually zero offense. I honestly can't even see how the takedown could be perceived as the round-winning factor in a fight such as this one, as it consistently put Johnson into defensive positions.

Anyone have any thoughts on the fight or the current status of the guard in MMA?
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I find it a bit hypocritical to criticise takedowns and not sweeps if neither generate much offense after being performed. Yeah, 4 sweeps is nice but the only reason 4 sweeps is possible is because the first 3 wasn't enough.

Also I could see why sub attempts don't appeal to the judges purely for the fact that they're failed attempts. While it shows agression, its not considered effective grappling, especially if you lose position after the attempt. I forget where the quote originated from but "a guard is the best of a bad situation". Top position is the dominating position and if you're controlling the advantageous position then its more effective than a failed triangle attempt.

Really it boils down to what you score more in that situation, agression or effective grappling?

Either way I had Torres winning 2 rounds at the least.
 
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Judo Bounce said:
I find it a bit hypocritical to criticise takedowns and not sweeps if neither generate much offense after being performed. Yeah, 4 sweeps is nice but the only reason 4 sweeps is possible is because the first 3 wasn't enough.

Also I could see why sub attempts don't appeal to the judges purely for the fact that they're failed attempts. While it shows agression, its not considered effective grappling, especially if you lose position after the attempt. I forget where the quote originated from but "a guard is the best of a bad situation". Top position is the dominating position and if you're controlling the advantageous position then its more effective than a failed triangle attempt.

Really it boils down to what you score more in that situation, agression or effective grappling?

Either way I had Torres winning 2 rounds at the least.
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i think being on top should win you fights when that's the only thing that happens or everything else is equal. but when you get nothing going on the ground, but are instead eating elbows and defending triangles all the time, you're losing the fight.

even if they're failed attempts, you're still losing - just as you are losing the fight if you're being pressed and defend the strikes standing. torres managed to sweep him every time he got taken down and he threatened with a shitton of subs.

he got robbed.
 
randomg1t said:
i think being on top should win you fights when that's the only thing that happens or everything else is equal. but when you get nothing going on the ground, but are instead eating elbows and defending triangles all the time, you're losing the fight.

even if they're failed attempts, you're still losing - just as you are losing the fight if you're being pressed and defend the strikes standing. torres managed to sweep him every time he got taken down and he threatened with a shitton of subs.

he got robbed.
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Right. IMO while in Torres's guard there were points where Mighty Mouse was on the defensive but was however able to maintain top position, thus continued to grapple effectively even if barely. In this case, the agression should've outweighed the effective grappling and points given to Torres.

Defending strikes incur damage. Defending a submission in most cases doesn't. To use a similar analogy, preventing a sweep could be viewed the same as parrying a strike and maintaining control of the situation.

The elbows from the bottom weren't damaging but only to open up opportunities to sweep/submit.

And as far as sweeps, they should be considered the same as a takedown as they both achieved the top position. With that in mind, Torres did sweep every time Mouse took him down so they broke even. What matters next is who held top position longer and did the most damage. Miguel didn't hold the position for long in the later parts of the fight and wasn't able to generate much offense either. While he was in mount, the whole time he was focusing solely on making sure Mouse didn't regain guard and wasn't able to do much damage because of it.
 
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Judo Bounce said:
Right. IMO while in Torres's guard there were points where Mighty Mouse was on the defensive but was however able to maintain top position, thus continued to grapple effectively even if barely. In this case, the agression should've outweighed the effective grappling and points given to Torres.

Defending strikes incur damage. Defending a submission in most cases doesn't. To use a similar analogy, preventing a sweep could be viewed the same as parrying a strike and maintaining control of the situation.

The elbows from the bottom weren't damaging but only to open up opportunities to sweep/submit.

And as far as sweeps, they should be considered the same as a takedown as they both achieved the top position. With that in mind, Torres did sweep every time Mouse took him down so they broke even. What matters next is who held top position longer and did the most damage. Miguel didn't hold the position for long in the later parts of the fight and wasn't able to generate much offense either. While he was in mount, the whole time he was focusing solely on making sure Mouse didn't regain guard and wasn't able to do much damage because of it.
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No. No to all of this. The only time during the fight MM was able to do anything offensive was during the takedowns themselves, that was it. He did nothing else. You are trying way too hard to rationalize a win for MM, just stop.
 
everyone knows that the judging in MMA is VERY flawed. Im not even suprised anymore when the decision goes the complete opposite then whats actually happening. Person A can beat person B on the feet, but as long as person B gets a takedown and holds person A down for 30 - 60 seconds he wins the round. And 12 to 6 elbows and heelstomps to the kidneys beeing illegal is ridiculous. mma is going to get very boring if this type of judging and ruleset is staying put. Future mma fighters will be training limited striking to set up takedowns, and stalling in the guard defending submissions and throwing a punch once in a while so they dont get stood up.

Cant wait for the sport to evolve and future generations to make impact on judging, referees and goverment.
 
I agree. In my last tournament I got taken down. I was trying super hard for submissions and then time ran out and I lost 2-0 which is bullshit because I was trying really really hard.
 
TheCuttlefish said:
I agree. In my last tournament I got taken down. I was trying super hard for submissions and then time ran out and I lost 2-0 which is bullshit because I was trying really really hard.
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I didn't know MMA gave out points for takedowns. How many points did Torres get for his sweeps?
 
It was nice to see Torres use his slick BJJ. He won that fight.
 
I think Miguel won 2 rounds to 1, but it was hardly a miscarriage of justice. It was a very close fight. If you look at it from a BJJ perspective, Mighty Mouse of course got all the takedowns, and he also passed Miguels guard several times. That should count for as much or more then a sweep. They both used effective grappling IMO. Miguel was busier from his guard, but Mighty Mouse continuously put Miguel on the ground and was working to improve position most of the time.

Props to both fighters for a fun fight to watch.
 
One thing that disappointed me was Torres' reaction at the end of the fight. Johnson raised his arms and let out a victorious yell and Torres looked at the floor shaking his head. In a close fight, when the judges may well be undecided which way to award the points, that could make a difference. The judge can look at the fighters and think "Well they both think Johnson won that round, that'll do for me".
 
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Sounds like Torres won the fight, I didnt see it though.

But please stop with the missed subs stuff...They are missed subs and unlike glancing blows cause no damage. Its not like streetfigter where 5 health comes off the opponents meter even if you miss the sub..if it were the case it sounds like Torres would have won by "accumulated damage" from all the failed sub attempts.
 
I actually think the decision was dead on, and I'm a BJJ guy for the most part.

Remember, Mighty Mouse showed some impressive BJJ skills himself; passing Miguel's guard at least twice... Reversing him from side mount. A slick Mount escape.

I had Miguel winning round one, with MM taking the last two. great fight.
 
knoxpk said:
Sounds like Torres won the fight, I didnt see it though.

But please stop with the missed subs stuff...They are missed subs and unlike glancing blows cause no damage. Its not like streetfigter where 5 health comes off the opponents meter even if you miss the sub..if it were the case it sounds like Torres would have won by "accumulated damage" from all the failed sub attempts.
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Aggression, no?
 
upkicks should be legalize against a kneeling position especially when you're in the bottom & your opponent isn't planning to pass guard or mount an offense. kidney shots as well.

it's far too easy to learn bjj defense compared to offense, give the bjj player more weapons & the wrestler would have 2nd thoughts of taking anybody down.
 
KogaGarcia said:
Aggression, no?
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Agreesion yes...that is why I am not arguing over what people are saying, that and I didnt see the fight.

I am just talking about folks who says the guy on top did no damage but imply that subs from bottom do "damage" they dont unless you are "this" close to finishing.

The agression part, ok, I can get behind that but also just throwing subs up without being close is not effective either....its like throwing 100 punches that all miss, at least with a punch if you "clip" someone there is some damage.


upkicks should be legalize against a kneeling position especially when you're in the bottom & your opponent isn't planning to pass guard or mount an offense. kidney shots as well.

it's far too easy to learn bjj defense compared to offense, give the bjj player more weapons & the wrestler would have 2nd thoughts of taking anybody down.
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I dont mind that so long as knees to a grounded/kneeling opponent are allwoed too
 
yovan said:
I actually think the decision was dead on, and I'm a BJJ guy for the most part.

Remember, Mighty Mouse showed some impressive BJJ skills himself; passing Miguel's guard at least twice... Reversing him from side mount. A slick Mount escape.

I had Miguel winning round one, with MM taking the last two. great fight.
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I actually agree. I think he lost round 2 by getting his guard passed at the very end.
Also Mighty Mouse did a little bit more damage in the second half of the fight.
 
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