Law The Line in the Sand - A challenge for Sherdog's Trump supporters

[jeremyemilio]

I’m sure you were just as upset when a raid ordered by Trump killed his daughter.

If you were upset about Obama killing someone that left the US, and joined a terrorists organization, you should be irate about an 8 year old getting killed.
Right?

Of course. Due process is everything. No president should be able to just make a claim about someone, have no legal obligation to prove that claim, and then do whatever they feel like to that person without legal recourse. That's the definition of a dictatorship.

For instance, I think it's absolutely insane that a president would claim the right to deport anyone (let alone an American citizen), and have them sent to a foreign prison without due process. How in hell are you supposed to know that the person is not an American or is in the country illegally or is in any way a criminal who ought to be sent to prison without due process? What you are saying when you say that a president has the power to deport someone without due process and without any pathway to legal challenge or recourse is that the president can literally deport anyone at any time for any reason.

That's also EXACTLY what Holder argued about Obama's ordered assassination of Anwar Al-Aulaqi. That wasn't a legal argument about the justifiability of that particular president ordering that particular targeting of that particular US citizen. It was literally a legal argument that any president has the right to target any citizen with no obligation to ever prove anything.

It's an absolutely insane argument. I can't wrap my head around the fact that so many people seem to be okay with it. I get why so many people are upset with Trump doing the same sorts of things. These are absolutely tyrannical, dictatorial, acts. I just don't understand why people stood for not just those acts, but readily accepted the authoritarian apologetics for those acts with Obama.

If someone as comparatively sane as Obama did that sort of stuff, and argued that the president is perfectly within his rights to do that sort of stuff, then OF COURSE someone as comparatively unhinged as Trump is going to do it, too. Let's not act like he's turning up new ground, though. The insane political and legal theory that the president can do whatever he pleases, up to and including killing US citizens, was floated (and widely accepted) long before Trump was in office.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Made it to post before Whataboutism.

“ do you have a line that Trump could cross which would make him lose your support?”

“OBAMA!”

It's not just "whataboutism," though.

It's noting that the legal argument that the president has the right to do whatever he wants to whomever he wants, up to and including the assassination of an American citizen, without ever being legally obliged to prove anything whatsoever about the target or the reason for making them a target, was established (and broadly accepted) BEFORE Trump ever held office.

That seems important.

 

[DoctorTaco]

It's not just "whataboutism," though.

It's noting that the legal argument that the president has the right to do whatever he wants to whomever he wants, up to and including the assassination of an American citizen, without ever being legally obliged to prove anything whatsoever about the target or the reason for making them a target, was established (and broadly accepted) BEFORE Trump ever held office.

That seems important.

I’m not arguing whether or not this topic is of importance. I’m saying it’s whataboutism because TS is asking where supporters for Trump would draw a line and no longer support him.

It’s a pretty innocuous question. It is also relatively civil and neutral. It has nothing to do with a guy who was president a decade ago

 

[Loiosh]

If someone as comparatively sane as Obama did that sort of stuff, and argued that the president is perfectly within his rights to do that sort of stuff

The left was extremely unhappy with Obama, in real time.

This was in Obama's second term.

 

[nostradumbass]

Since the "challenge for sherdog Trump supporters" looks more like yet another thread full of lefties punching the air again, maybe some of you could answer what your line would be that would make you consider him a good president.

 

[heloder]

Since the "challenge for sherdog Trump supporters" looks more like yet another thread full of lefties punching the air again, maybe some of you could answer what your line would be that would make you consider him a good president.

You should make that thread after responding to mine in good faith.

 

[DoctorTaco]

some of you could answer what your line would be that would make you consider him a good president.

I am happy to answer this in good faith if you will answer TS’s question the same way

 

[Kingz]

It would depend on the circumstances preceding each event. Obviously an invasion, war, martial law, postponed elections, etc can have legitimate trigger points. Obviously if they were just done then I’d probably stop being a supporter. Not a Democrat unless they got significantly more based socially, but I’d certainly withdraw my support.

As it is now:

He didn’t ignore a Supreme Court ruling. He just used the wiggle room they left by removing “effectuate” to make the lower court ruling unenforceable if Bukele says he won’t release him.

Which is why there has been no real escalation from the judiciary in result of this alleged disregard for a Supreme Court ruling. Like wouldn’t the Supreme Court at some point say “yo, you’re ignoring our ruling”. They haven’t. The change of language in the lower court ruling is massive. Could Trump get him back if he really wanted? In theory but he doesn’t want and he was left with a card to play. Which is why they viewed the ruling as a W,

Not sure what public officials have been threatened.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

As Trump's administration continues to push the boundaries of legality and the foundation of our Democracy, I'd like to issue a challenge to his remaining supporters on this forum.

Where do you draw the line in the sand? What would Trump or his administration have to do for you to finally say "enough is enough"? What would this nation have to become for you to withdraw all support for him and his administration?

You can say whatever you'd like, of course, but here are a few options.

Trump refuses to comply with orders from the Supreme Court.
The government begins threatening public officials. <----- You are here.
The government begins deporting incarcerated (convicted criminal) US citizens.
Trump declares war against (strikes or invades) an adversary.
Trump declares war against (strikes or invades) an ally.
Trump deploys the military within our borders.
Trump declares martial law.
The government arrests dissenters who are exercising their free speech.
The government begins deporting non-incarcerated (non-criminal) US citizens.
Trump refuses to leave office if impeached and convicted.
Trump dissolves Congress / SCOTUS.
Trump deploys the military against (fires upon) US citizens within our borders.
Trump pauses or cancels elections.

I make this thread solely in the interest of posterity and future discussions. I'm not claiming that any of the above is or is not probable (I'll keep my opinion on that to another discussion).

So, what does the "Don't Tread On Me" crowd say?

Holman threatened to enforce laws if people break them.

Trump is already "stealthly" defying SCOTUS by hiding behind I can't make a foreign country give him back. No one believes US citizens are getting 'depororted'. But yes that should be a bridge too far.

Dissolving Congess? Where do you guys come up with this stuff. Is it like when you guys were worried that Trump might give pardons to his family?

 

[terrapin]

Cool fantasy

if only trump would not say he wants to do it.

 

[terrapin]

Since the "challenge for sherdog Trump supporters" looks more like yet another thread full of lefties punching the air again, maybe some of you could answer what your line would be that would make you consider him a good president.

he could not be a rapist and a liar and a bully who bankrupted blue collar people by burying them in legal fees as a way to get out of paying his debts. he could be educated enough to know that MS13 was NOT literally tattooed on an immigrants knuckles, he could stop lying about immigrants eating our pets etc.

that might be a start.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I’m sure you were just as upset when a raid ordered by Trump killed his daughter.

If you were upset about Obama killing someone that left the US, and joined a terrorists organization, you should be irate about an 8 year old getting killed.
Right?

What???

 

[jefferz]

What???

What part don’t you understand?

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

There is no line. They literally want a authoritarian dictator because they believe he'll crush all their perceived enemies.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

What part don’t you understand?

Trump ordered a raid that killed someone's daughter?

 

[DoctorTaco]

Not sure what public officials have been threatened

Vice President Kamala Harris "should be impeached and prosecuted," Trump said at a rally last month.

"I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden, and the entire Biden crime family," Trump said last year

"ELIZABETH LYNNE CHENEY IS GUILTY OF TREASON," reads one post Trump reposted on his social media site, Truth Social, regarding the former Republican congresswoman. "RETRUTH IF YOU WANT TELEVISED MILITARY TRIBUNALS."

Journalists who decline to identify the sources of leaked information would also face imprisonment, Trump said.

"If the reporter doesn't want to tell you, it's 'bye-bye,' the reporter goes to jail," Trump said in 2022. He appeared to suggest that the reporter could also face sexual assault while in custody.

When right-wing radio host Glenn Beck asked Trump if he would lock up his opponents in a second term, Trump responded, "The answer is you have no choice because they're doing it to us."

START ARRESTING THE POLL WORKERS AND WATCH HOW FAST THEY TELL YOU WHO TOLD THEM TO CHEAT," reads a message Trump reposted on social media in 2023.

New York Attorney General Letitia James and Judge Arthur Engoron "should be arrested and punished accordingly," Trump said at a rally in January

Trump Judge Engoron should end the ridiculous Political Witch Hunt against me. I have TOTALLY WON THIS CASE, which should never have been brought. The only Fraud was committed by A.G. Letitia James in convincing the Judge that Mar-a-Lago was only worth $18,000,000 (in order to make my "numbers" look bad), when it is worth 50 to 100 times that amount. She campaigned on "getting Trump." She should be prosecuted!

Among the other targets of Trump's threats are former President Barack Obama("RETRUTH IF YOU WANT PUBLIC MILITARY TRIBUNALS"

members of the U.S. Capitol Police who defended the Capitol during the Jan. 6, 2021, riot ("The cops should be charged and the protesters should be freed")

the Jan. 6 Select Committee in Congress ("They should be prosecuted for their lies and, quite frankly, TREASON!"),

founder Mark Zuckerberg ("We are watching him closely, and if he does anything illegal this time he will spend the rest of his life in prison"), people who criticize the Supreme Court

people who criticize the Supreme Court ("These people should be put in jail, the way they talk about our judges and our justices"

protesters who burn the American flag ("You should get a one-year jail sentence if you desecrate the American flag").

Trump suggested that Gen. Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in his administration, could face execution for calling officials in China to try and defuse tensions in the chaotic aftermath of the Jan. 6 attack.

"This is an act so egregious that, in times gone by, the punishment would have been DEATH!" Trump wrote on Truth Social.

After his presidential debate against Harris on ABC News, Trump called for the FCC to revoke ABC's broadcast license, due to his perception of the moderators' bias. He also called for an investigation of CBS News for campaign finance violations after it aired an interview with Vice President Harris. He's previously floated pulling the license for NBC, as well, over criticisms of its news coverage.

 

[Libero cane v2]

Keeping with their ethics standards from when Obama was president, I assume they’ll draw the line at Trump wearing a tan suit.

 

[nostradumbass]

I am happy to answer this in good faith if you will answer TS’s question the same way

Sure, "dissolving congress and SCOTUS" and nuking the US would obviously do it.

I got 3 responses to my question from lefties and 0 of them had any answers with any policy or results that would make you guys consider him a good president. Total shocker.

 

[Kingz]

Vice President Kamala Harris "should be impeached and prosecuted," Trump said at a rally last month.

"I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden, and the entire Biden crime family," Trump said last year

"ELIZABETH LYNNE CHENEY IS GUILTY OF TREASON," reads one post Trump reposted on his social media site, Truth Social, regarding the former Republican congresswoman. "RETRUTH IF YOU WANT TELEVISED MILITARY TRIBUNALS."

Journalists who decline to identify the sources of leaked information would also face imprisonment, Trump said.

"If the reporter doesn't want to tell you, it's 'bye-bye,' the reporter goes to jail," Trump said in 2022. He appeared to suggest that the reporter could also face sexual assault while in custody.

When right-wing radio host Glenn Beck asked Trump if he would lock up his opponents in a second term, Trump responded, "The answer is you have no choice because they're doing it to us."

START ARRESTING THE POLL WORKERS AND WATCH HOW FAST THEY TELL YOU WHO TOLD THEM TO CHEAT," reads a message Trump reposted on social media in 2023.

New York Attorney General Letitia James and Judge Arthur Engoron "should be arrested and punished accordingly," Trump said at a rally in January

Trump Judge Engoron should end the ridiculous Political Witch Hunt against me. I have TOTALLY WON THIS CASE, which should never have been brought. The only Fraud was committed by A.G. Letitia James in convincing the Judge that Mar-a-Lago was only worth $18,000,000 (in order to make my "numbers" look bad), when it is worth 50 to 100 times that amount. She campaigned on "getting Trump." She should be prosecuted!

Among the other targets of Trump's threats are former President Barack Obama("RETRUTH IF YOU WANT PUBLIC MILITARY TRIBUNALS"

members of the U.S. Capitol Police who defended the Capitol during the Jan. 6, 2021, riot ("The cops should be charged and the protesters should be freed")

the Jan. 6 Select Committee in Congress ("They should be prosecuted for their lies and, quite frankly, TREASON!"),

founder Mark Zuckerberg ("We are watching him closely, and if he does anything illegal this time he will spend the rest of his life in prison"), people who criticize the Supreme Court

people who criticize the Supreme Court ("These people should be put in jail, the way they talk about our judges and our justices"

protesters who burn the American flag ("You should get a one-year jail sentence if you desecrate the American flag").

Trump suggested that Gen. Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in his administration, could face execution for calling officials in China to try and defuse tensions in the chaotic aftermath of the Jan. 6 attack.

"This is an act so egregious that, in times gone by, the punishment would have been DEATH!" Trump wrote on Truth Social.

After his presidential debate against Harris on ABC News, Trump called for the FCC to revoke ABC's broadcast license, due to his perception of the moderators' bias. He also called for an investigation of CBS News for campaign finance violations after it aired an interview with Vice President Harris. He's previously floated pulling the license for NBC, as well, over criticisms of its news coverage.

Most of those are just suggestions rather than direct threats. Saying something should happen is not the same as saying this will happen if I don’t get my way or once I have the power.

And most of those should be investigated, if not prosecuted and jailed…especially one Mark Milley who was comforting the ChiComs by presenting his boss as powerless. The chickens are coming home to roost on Letitia James.

and most importantly, just about none of those came with him holding or using his power. Hyperbolic language as a candidate or what was briefly thought as a politically exiled former President aren’t what we’re talking about.

So who is currently under threat now that he holds the power, since I thought this was supposed to be about his current Presidency?

 

[MrShady]

Just curious, anyone else think every modern president since the 2000s has gone "too far" in one way or another?

Trump is the most brazen and reckless, but every one of them should serve jail sentences for their administration's crimes. Blue/red demo repub...it's one big club and we ain't in it.